Sam Birkett 0:04
Hello, and welcome once again, back to Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam and now it's part two of our podcast. Anyway, I'll be quiet and let you carry on and listen to our conversation. Enjoy. It was LinkedIn actually, so I have to attribute this to, it was LinkedIn account managers, way back when I was working at the Business School in Oxford and they said about slicing and dicing the turkey and I use that all the time now. This whole thing about content because again, as you said, Sally, I had this conversation in fact, like, a couple of weeks ago, somebody saying, "oh, that's going to cost a lot of money, isn't it if we record this event, or do this" and I said, "Well, it's gonna cost this much, it's gonna cost less than you think. But also, we need to slice it". And I say this about video, but also anything else, but particularly video. So you say if you're there if you've booked half a day's worth of filming. It's all the B-roll opportunities. It's all of the you know... one interview is not just one interview, it's perhaps a longer form, shorter snippets, it's other elements, it's things that that person perhaps uses themselves to spotlight their own organisation. It's all of those elements isn't it, that you can plan in and think about and include in a filming day. So you get the most value possible out of it. And I think quite often, yeah, people do just think it's one simple... not a one-trick pony, but you know, it's one thing, we're doing this, and that's it and there we go. They... because it's planning, I suppose as well, isn't it? Because I mean, I'm looking at doing something at the moment with a client where we're looking to get a series of interviews together. And we said, well, let's plan out, make sure we've got the space. We've got the people, and we can get a lot in, in one day, you know, and then say, we're just we're planning ahead. And you've got to have that perspective all the time, haven't you? I think.

David Camburn 1:49
Absolutely Sam. I mean, we did one, years ago it was an absolute classic. Where was it was three, four members of staff we interviewed plus five testimonial interviews. There you go. You've got, as we said, you've got content. So each one not only do you have a big film, on a secondary film split between staff and client testimonials, but then you've got 30-second testimonials, at least half a dozen, straight away. So you've got one for each month of the year already. And because they shot indoors you're not time specific. It's great and again, they can be used again and again. Because, again, what people think, "Oh, I've used it once. I can't use it again". No, no, of course you can! You can use it on, on your TikTok, on your Instagram, on your LinkedIn, that's, you know, not everyone's looking at exactly the same thing at the same time.

Sally Green 2:46
Yes. Also just because you posted it once does not mean that absolutely everybody saw it. If you think everyone's sitting there waiting for your posts, you're very wrong, you know, just post it again, and then you'll catch some more audience.

Sam Birkett 2:59
Yeah, yeah. It's that internal perspective, isn't it? It's this exact again, that's conversations of past where people go "but yes, we produce that last year, you know, and we've had that as very old and dated now". But it was a scenario where we wish we knew we were marketing to a new group of people. So we actually knew it wasn't the same group and we sort of said, well, hang on a second. Have these new guys seen this? Well, no, perhaps they haven't. And I said, "Well, there you go. I mean, is it wrong to we need to update it? Yes, we can. But it's absolutely fine". You know, it was that uncertainty. So I suppose it's sort of assigning a value, isn't it? There's obviously the good old ROI conversation because Phil says, right, I'm gonna spend a reasonable chunk of my budget on producing these, I don't know why we're talking about that, but producing these videos. Yeah, they need to get their return on it. But there are so many options and then coming back, as you say if you've retained archives, the B-roll in particular because I mean, that's the thing I've had in the past as well, where you said, can we create this video? "Oh, no, we've got all of the human stuff. We don't have any other B-roll captured around our flashy new building, which is beautiful. And why didn't we think of this?". But I suppose there are those points out there to remember. I mean, there's a lot of questions, I suppose that you sort of ask new clients and to make them think about things like that. I guess that must be part of it.

David Camburn 4:13
Absolutely and then again, the pre-production is key. Because just as I say, you just going to turn up on the day and do it. It's like, well, first of all, you've kindly come to us and said you'd like a video, but what do you actually want? Who are you talking to build you want to appeal to? Do you have a product that you want to sell? That's the key again, that the story is key because it will be so easy to turn up and do an all singing all dancing, very glossy video that completely misses the target. And these poor people will have spent a lot of money and it's like, Well, what was the point of that? We've had no response nothing. Well, it's because you were featuring this widget or whether which no one's interested in here. Again, we gotta go make it human, just make it human and get people talking about you, that's key.

Sally Green 5:07
How do you feel about this is something you probably don't professionally fill, but people who do TikTok videos. So all those dances everyone's got to learn? Do you think over time they will become professionally done?

David Camburn 5:25
Yeah, I had a friend, it's a really good question. I had a friend who we worked with as a photographer, who got massively into Instagram when it first started and now doesn't use it. Because he said he got flooded with all of a sudden big companies started making really glossy films and photographs about watches and cars. He said, and so people's original content disappeared. Now, I don't know the algorithms and haven't really gone into that in any great extent. But there's always a danger that the big companies take over and you see it on LinkedIn, some really big ones will come in and do lots and lots of glossy content and the adverts keep and you think I wish I could get rid of these efforts. So you can't, they are there all the time. I think it's whatever you're... to go back to your original question... it's whatever you're comfortable with. I mean we don't use TikTok. Some people will say you're mad not to because you're missing out on a market. I don't know, I think there will always be the bigger companies will suddenly big-foot in with more glossy content and then again, you may be you need to go back. It's the more authentic stuff that will stand out

Sally Green 6:46
Your people, you know, you'll be commissioned to, you know, film CEOs during the marvellous dance they learned from the choreographer they employed to make it marvellous, and it suddenly starts not being TikTok.

David Camburn 6:58
No, no, it's, you know, when if there's a 50-year-old white male doing that sort of thing you know, it's gone from, come on. I saw one this morning, and I won't mention any names or anything, but it's a car advert. And there's 6, 50+ white men all in identical suits, white shirts, just standing next to this car. And I just thought where's the creativity? What's going on there? What's going on there? Who commissioned that? It's just bizarre! I mean, he got me talking about it. So maybe that's it!

Sally Green 7:33
Oh, damn, damn!

Sam Birkett 7:36
I was gonna ask, actually, I was gonna come to this which I parked this fit for a few moments or whenever we talk about it, it was about when you see a film and you think, "Gosh, that's good", or things that you like and you think that's really done? Then, coming back to my original point. So I was gonna say connecting the last two elements we've talked about really, which was around the briefing process, because I mean, I've spoken to people before who work in media and have said that the briefing process is probably the essential thing from the client, what the client actually wants. Do you find that clients come to you, sometimes they go, Well, really, we need a video. And you go, right, and? And they go, "Well, we need a video.", and they perhaps haven't moved on. I mean, how do you sort of manage that process of trying to get out what they need? Because I mean, I suppose, with the marketing aspects, in particular, and we've mentioned TikTok as a channel, it's sort of, you know, as a marketer, I'm thinking, well, I need a video to tell this story, to connect this, and it's gonna be shared on hopefully, these channels, and it could be repurposed and blah, blah. But do you find that it's sometimes difficult to help? Or do you help sort of construct that purpose and usage idea with clients?

David Camburn 8:46
Very, very much. So. Absolutely. A key part of the process Sam, I mean, yeah. Again, it goes back to asking them, you know, what do you want to achieve? What's your story? What's your message? And then we can repurpose it to fit any platform. Absolutely. That's not a problem. But do you want to appeal to 20-year-olds? Do you want to appeal to 50-year-olds? You know, it has to be slightly different and then some people will say, "Oh, you know, comedy I want comedy" and it's like, oh, goodness, here we go. And comedy is one of the most difficult things to do because what you laugh at, we don't laugh and so that's really hard. But no, that is absolutely key. It's what is your message? And actually, most people do know, it just needs teasing out and once you take the video, the film away from it and just say, Okay, well, if you were talking to somebody in the pub, and I learned this lesson many years ago news and I started in news. My first editor always said to me, if you can explain what that story is to somebody in the pub in a couple of sentences, your home and dry and that's what it's all about. Because we went through a process where everything got really, really complicated. Everyone discovered drones arrived, everybody wanted to race drones around, and yeah, okay. Drones are fantastic, don't get me wrong and I love them. But thankfully, they get used a lot sparingly now. Because they were trying to trace trains and cars and some of that looks brilliant, absolutely brilliant. But everything became the same. So you go to a client. Yeah, I've got that on a drone, and I want to do this and I want fast cars and they're like, Yeah, okay, here we go.

Sally Green 10:29
But actually, you're advertising a ball-bearing?

David Camburn 10:31
Exactly. Yeah, you know, it's like, what do you want to do with your film? You know, that's the key. And then that's one of the fun parts of the creativity part of it. It's working with the client, to actually get their message across and, you know, we learn all the time, and it's great. That's why I love working with academics and things because it's busy, as you were saying earlier Sam, that dry language. Well, how do you transport that into stuff? And we do a lot of work in FinTech and AI, it's just fascinating. I mean, the world is changing so rapidly.

Sally Green 11:09
It's also identifying who your audience is. So what is going to be the right kind of... how quickly do you need to talk about this? Do you need to be quite ponderous and explain it over a long time? Or is your audience absolutely going to get it straight off? So the filming and what you're cutting up, the bits you're cutting up, can be spontaneous and quick? Or is that going to confuse your audience that you must have to think about that a lot as well?

David Camburn 11:34
Absolutely. And things like music styles, when again, there was a fad. That has been put for quick cut edits, you know, lots of jump cuts. Quick, quick, quick, quick and you think well, yeah, that that can work in a fast-paced product that works really well, cars, again, works terrifically. But a lot of other stuff it doesn't. Because the viewer is so busy watching this beautifully produced thing they haven't taken in what's this actually about. It's about washing up liquid bottles. It hasn't come through, you know.

Sally Green 12:03
And do you find that people don't understand that, no, you can't have that piece of music because it's too expensive. We haven't got the rights.

David Camburn 12:11
Yes, rights are... yeah, it's a difficult one. I mean, we obviously use music libraries, which are great, because it's all licenced. But yeah, people will come to you and say I want to use this. There's one more piece of music that's currently number one in the charts. And it's like, yeah, okay, how much money have you got?

Sally Green 12:32
Let's just assess that a bit.

David Camburn 12:34
You're not going to use a Madonna track or something. It's not that... well you can, but it's gonna cost you an absolute, you know... and there's so much again, it's like we were discussing earlier, the cameras and the technology have moved on. There is so much great music out that libraries you can pay for, you just pay a yearly subscription and use as much as you need.

Sally Green 12:54
It's interesting to recognise we haven't talked about sound at all. And that actually what production companies do as well is the sound. You don't just take pictures and then go, oh, well, now it's your problem. You do all the sound and make us sound, our voices sound better and all that, but don't you and that's we don't really think about the end of it.

David Camburn 13:11
Sound is key and thank you! You just reminded me of a blog post I need to do. Researching some stuff the other week. But yeah, absolutely. People forget sound. So again, I'll wave my camera phone about, they'll go outside, they'll record it. And you can't hear a thing because the traffic's out there. Now there are various apps and things you can use to help smooth that out. But yeah, people just forget sound. And it's one of the key elements. And sometimes a little pause and silences and things can kind of help as much.

Sally Green 13:42
I think people recognise sound but they're not aware of it, because when I live in Oxford, and they obviously do a lot of film filming in Oxford, and I was walking on the street once I thought, oh, there's this funny squashy thing on the pavement. It was like walking across a kind of a sponge, and you suddenly thought, oh, they put that down so their feet don't click clack when they're filming. And you don't realise that kind of thing. So you do occasionally see videos of people walking across stages or up and down streets and actually you can really hear their shoes clicking along.

David Camburn 14:14
Yep, absolutely. We did about a year ago in the Ashmolean in Oxford, we did a big film and lots of rubber matting all over the floor. A) to protect the floor, because we didn't want to damage it. But B) it deadens the sound so it stops all of that. Absolutely. And the other thing we've got outside filming and the camera guy and I will suddenly stop and say cut and they'll say "Why'd you do that?". We can hear the helicopter coming. You know?

Sally Green 14:41
Wow! And people who wear bangles, that's always annoying.

Unknown Speaker 14:45
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Microphones, noises shirt rustles, all key because you can destroy a production with bad audio. Absolutely.

Sam Birkett 14:56
And it's also that thing as you said about the music. I mean, again when I've done things of the past, you've edited something you've sent over the cuts to somebody or even a version which is nearing the end of them, they go watch and go, "Oh, well, it was a bit. Yeah, that's good. You know, and we've got all the points across everything, but it felt, I don't know, just lacked a bit of, you know, connection verve. And it wasn't quite there". And I said, "Oh, well, you know, we're going to put... there's going to be music put in there". And then they sort of went, "Oh, will that make much of a difference?". Well, let's do it and then you tell me, but it's one of those things, isn't it? I mean, we kind of forget, it's all this incidental stuff. It's going all the time. But when you're watching a film, you realise that music is playing almost the whole time and lots of films, that you don't really register. But the atmosphere that it's just it's so many of those, I don't know the experts on the way in which human beings perceive things and consume movement and sound and it makes such a difference, doesn't it? The type of music you select, you know, because I mean, particularly in education, there's certain tracks you hear again and again, but getting it right must be really crucial.

David Camburn 16:02
But it is! One of the examples I always use with clients if they're slightly concerned, that's quite understandable. They don't want a huge noise over them. But I say look, if you go back and look at the old silent movies, so the Laurel and Hardy, the music that plays will punctuate what's happening, the drama or whatever, some sentimental passage, you listen to that music. And then the key, well, I mean, Jane Campion has just won the Oscar, if you listen to her film. I found that fascinating because Jonny Greenwood composed a lot of music for that. It's extraordinary sounds, and I had to watch it a second time, because wow, that was absolutely amazing the atmosphere that that's created. And people are scared of music, and rightly so because I understand that they're worried that it's going to drown their message, but no it can work really, really well.

Sally Green 16:56
And it can be quite interesting because actually human beings all the time, we're never just listening to one sound. If you're sitting at home, there are lots of background noises that you're zoning out, but they're there. And it's actually quite eerie. When you watch a video with just someone's voice. It's a bit weird.

David Camburn 17:14
Absolutely. And always when we're on set wherever we go, always record wild track. So whenever you've done film, either record without the voices

Sally Green 17:23
What is a wild track? Does it escape?

David Camburn 17:25
Yes. So you record the sound of the room, or we'll go out and we record a minute of traffic, whatever so that the editor has sound to play with. So it's lots of nice sound. So we've got a library of that now because they can be... I mean, you can be in the middle of filming and you know, a siren will go past. And so instead of retaking that, which you probably will do anywhere, but you also have some nice ambient traffic sound that the editor can run anyway, that will get rid of that. So it's yeah, it's great fun, very fun.

Sally Green 17:58
When you're doing it as professionally and I know you can do it yourself. But your editors are taking out, you know, little tiny snippets of sound, aren't they? It's like, I read a really interesting article about when they were recording music, kind of orchestral music and there was this person saying, "Oh, the trouble is the flute got that one note wrong. So we're just gonna take that out". And you think, are you? It's so finite now.

David Camburn 18:26
That's incredible. Incredible and saying, you know, digital editing. Wonderful. Absolutely extraordinary. Quick as well, you know,

Sally Green 18:33
Oh is it?

David Camburn 18:34
With Someone who knows what they're doing. We're lucky, we've got two or three guys.

Sally Green 18:40
So how long would it take? Suppose you did a day's filming and you're out to make a, let's say, a five-minute film? Or because that's quite a long time. People think that's where it's short. But actually, that's quite a long time. How long would that take you to edit down?

David Camburn 18:52
There is all the content but say I was planning a shoot, I would allow three days. One just going through all the material. And so you can go through everything with the editor and find out exactly what you want, which again, is time-saving, because he's not been searching through everything and he knows he's got a rough idea and when he goes in exactly... well he or she actually, knows exactly what they're doing. So that gives you a second day, really to almost fine-tune. And then the third day is what we call the client review. So as Sam was saying, Joe the client, and they're either gonna go "AAhhh" or fingers crossed, you get in touch, they've got a rough idea and they go "I like that. But I don't like that bit where I say that. Can you put something else in?", and then it's just once all that's done then just smoothing everything, the sound mix, and also the colour grade. And that's something we haven't talked about and something that is one of my own personal bugbears. I see a lot of stuff that you see people, they've shot raw, what we call raw in the camera and they've gone in and they've just edited it. And so you see very, very pale bases. The wonderful thing about digital filming the camera record so much information that if you do a lovely colour grade, the editor can bring that colour out because it's stored in your memory card and so many people don't do it. And it just adds so much again, when you're scrolling through LinkedIn or whatever, you'll see this nice bit of colour and you go, wow!

Sally Green 20:28
That is interesting because you do often people looking positively spectral as they've gone white, basically.

David Camburn 20:35
That's because they haven't done a colour grade, or they put on what we call a LUT, which is just a very basic sort of grade and it's because it's quick, and it saves time and fair enough. But also a lot of people don't know how to do it correctly. It's one of my personal bugbears is, you know, feature films do it, and most television does it, you know, it's and it just lifts the whole thing and it's all about giving value to the client. You know, it's if you do that, and it stands out, they get noticed.

Sally Green 21:08
Doing things we couldn't do at home. I very much doubt that should I record anything on my PC? I'm going to do what you've just described, I will of course look spectral.

David Camburn 21:20
Yeah, but it will bring out quite a bit. But it's just adding a little bit more when the clients pay good money, you want to really give them.

Sally Green 21:29
Make them look like real people.

David Camburn 21:32
Absolutely, really go straight.

Sam Birkett 21:33
It's like a documentary I was working watching last night in the Bayeux tapestry and these guys who were on took, you know, they did this spectral analysis thing, or something with this amazing camera, the entire 70 metres and then, of course, they did all this experimentation with the different dyes in the wool, and then they brought out so he projected on it to show the original colour. And again, like that all those tapestries at Hampton Court, it's sort of you see it as it originally so those guys were paid a lot of money, particularly throughout these tapestries to be wow, incredible, aren't they? And it's always in any sort of 16th century way with that, or 11th century way. This is what you're trying to do is you're trying to get something that stands out and is impressive. And as you say that grades are important. But I was going to come back to my other point there, which was about I suppose if there was an example, perhaps they would have either something that you've seen again, I know, it obviously depends on the audience on the message and what it's there for. But any sort of either an example of something you've seen which you've thought has been done really well, or a project that you've really enjoyed producing something that was had been very creative or different. Any examples of anything that you've thought, Gosh, that was really different?

David Camburn 22:43
There was one I saw it at the start of the year by a London marketing company that promoted London Underground, which was the reopening after lockdown. It was really clever because what they've done is they mixed the pictures and I think it was a sort of a bossa nova soundtrack. So the first thing you think is how on earth will that work? But it was just so well done with the movement of the doors and people. It was a big London agency. It was really nice and it actually, I'd actually reposted it on LinkedIn, I think because it just knocked me over. I was like, well, that's yeah. Having said that, they spent a lot of money on that you can see, but it was just so it was like, yeah, aspire to that. Second part, yeah. I mean, I enjoyed... I mean, one of the things I've been really lucky in this job is back in my early career, but also was about a few setups. I was filming abroad and one of the things I really loved is, I'm obsessed with sort of cityscapes and architecture. So it's been a real pleasure to do things like New York or San Francisco was incredible. But also, I was very lucky to film for CNN in India and the light in Delhi was just extraordinary and you can talk about all your techniques and your technology. But what that enabled you to do is the most incredible pink light, but as the sun came up, and I remember the one shot we did, our fixer, I said, I need to get people coming into the city. This is all about transport. He said right, we're gonna go to the top of this hill at 5am. You'll see all these people and we did we set the cameras rolling, it was just incredible. Thousands and thousands of bicycles just came into the city against this pink light that you couldn't have made. It was just astonishing and that has always stuck with me. I don't know why it's just I love that light.

Sally Green 24:45
Yeah, it's capturing those extraordinary moments.

David Camburn 24:50
So privileged! I always say to people who say, "Oh, you know, why did you choose your career?" It's like, well, we're so lucky. I mean, it kind of just happened. I got into journalism and I got into filmmaking, but just so lucky to be able to do what we do, you know, and I think any creative industry person is.

Sally Green 25:09
Yeah, you work with people like you and you hear stories like that and it sparks your mind. You think actually, that's interesting. Maybe I could do that over here in a slightly different way doesn't it's kind of everything comes from something.

David Camburn 25:20
I'm obsessed with the idea of lifelong knowledge and learning and it's kind of one of the reasons I do want to do but also why I do business networking things because I just love talking to people and learning about other companies and people. Why did you do that? Why did you choose to do that? I think those stories are fascinating.

Sally Green 25:40
Yeah, exactly. Why does that work? And as you say that, that brings us back to exactly why the film works, because people are telling those stories, as you've said, really powerfully on film, and that is engaging, it is just genuinely engaging. We've all loved since we were little people have been telling us stories. And we let you know, that's why we believe in Father Christmas because it's a great story. Which our parents have managed to tell beautifully.

Sam Birkett 26:08
Time and time again, exactly. That's fantastic. I just had from my perspective, I suppose Sally might have something as well. But I just had sort of one last or summing up sort of question, which was around the future, I suppose. I mean, we've already talked about sort of what's happened with COVID, and everything else. And of course, you don't have a crystal ball. But I suppose in terms of where do you have any thoughts about where you see the future of film, video production and I suppose, related to a marketing context of how companies are utilising video film but did you have any thoughts about where things might be going in the next few years at all?

David Camburn 26:42
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I always reference, people keep saying, oh, I keep seeing stories every 10 years, you know, cinema is dead, television is dead and then all of a sudden, there's a rebirth, cinema comes back. Television all of a sudden gets huge audiences. It evolves, it evolves with things like Netflix and Apple. But I think it will always be there and the fact that we view them on different platforms, iPads or phones, yeah, sure that that'll change. But the content will still always be there. I think there'll always be the demand for content. If that's made by people like me, or it's, it's self-made, it will still be there. Because again, going back to what we've just said, it's all about the story. People will have stories and it doesn't matter what you deliver that on. It's still there. And then we have the crazy situation this we have a story within a story at the Oscars. The films don't become the story and something else becomes the story it's quite bizarre. But no, I find it really exciting and as I say, to go back to what I referenced earlier, companies have changed so much and all of a sudden, we're seeing a demand for so many different things. Where people have just gone, I'm not doing that anymore. My company now does x, I need to get my message out. And things like I mean, I've referenced LinkedIn a lot, but because I've got quite interested in it, how things like that change their algorithms to promote content, and they're constantly changing. And working as Sally knows, the academics we work with I mean, the whole FinTech world, artificial intelligence, the cryptocurrency world, just extraordinary. But there will still be that demand to tell the story. And I think that video is still a great way to do that. But I wouldn't say that, wouldn't I.

Sally Green 28:40
You've got two people here that agree.

Sam Birkett 28:44
Completely. No, that's wonderful. I think it's so true and it is extraordinary what we've seen over the last few years and even going back. I mean, you think about a span of a career as well. Don't you see what's happened. But the increasing speed, it seems of what's happening out there and what people's expectations are, from a business sense, from a consumer sense. But I mean, it all comes back and I completely agree the whole telling the story, isn't it? I mean, that's what, there's the medium, but then there's the story. There's the elements of it and how you tell it, which is so crucial, but yeah.

Sally Green 29:20
I mean, LinkedIn has just become the second biggest search engine behind Google. So everyone looks up things on Google, and the second one is LinkedIn, because people want to see it in front of them.

David Camburn 29:32
I can believe it absolutely. Incredible.

Sam Birkett 29:36
Gosh, well we've... did you have any other points Sally? Because I feel like I've sort of jumped in there.

Sally Green 29:41
No, not at all. I was just thinking that we'd come around to the end of the story that we started with a story and we've told a story and here we are at the end of the story.

Sam Birkett 29:50
I think we have and what a fun story it's been as well. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's been great and I was just wondering if you could let people know where they can find you. And also Swanwoods out there on the internet. I presume you're gonna say LinkedIn as well.

David Camburn 30:10
Yes, we are, Swanwood Production Limited is on LinkedIn. Yeah, I mean, our websites there, I don't know whether you want the address, but the address www.swanwoodproductions.com - We do also have a Twitter page but that is slightly confusing because that's called Swanwood films because productions wouldn't fit. But we are there, but no, LinkedIn is the one. It really is. It's wonderful. And thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Been great to talk to you.

Sam Birkett 30:46
Oh, no problem. No, it's been really good fun. Really enjoyed it and yeah, I'm sure everyone listening has as well. So thank you so much again, and yes, if there's any conversations or if it comes up from this or questions people have, then please, you can get in touch with us on Twitter, on LinkedIn, or Facebook, we are around and you know, discuss it amongst your friends. It's been really interesting. Thank you once again, David. Yes. Take care everybody.