Sam Birkett 0:05
Hello and welcome once again back to Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam and now it's part two of our podcast anyway, I'll be quiet and let you carry on and listen to our conversation. Enjoy.

Sally Green 0:16
It's a really good example of this, Barber, they were that tweedy, were very sensible, were kind of very upper-middle-class aristocracy, that's our marketplace. And then a little while ago, they got adopted by Hip-Hop. That was a surprise to them. I would imagine when all of a sudden, they're going hang on a minute, we've got a huge marketplace with rappers. How has this happened? And who knows how it happened. But that was really interesting for them, because they, I would very much suspect, that their persona, were not cool, trendy, black rappers. It's extremely unlikely, and one would hope that maybe they have got that now. Maybe they have segmented, I somehow feel they haven't. But maybe they have now segmented it but because these strange things happen and that's why you need to keep asking your customers because you know, all of a sudden, you might have a marketplace that you haven't even recognised, and you're not sourcing it properly.

Sam Birkett 1:15
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's... it's what's really intriguing about... Yeah, I mean, I guess the more you think about it, the more digs down into your brand, doesn't it really? About... you know that what you're trying to do? And the fact that is it inconsistent to appeal to two incredibly diverse audience segments. I mean, it's like the, looking at the Lego example of saying, well, you know, we're appealing to Duplo, building blocks for little children. We're also appealing to adults building sports cars and Eiffel Towers and things like this and we're also doing an education thing. We're also doing a big charitable thing as well. I mean, is any of this inconsistent? Or what's the golden thread that goes throughout? You know, and if we do have that golden thread there, and that's okay. And we have the resources and the ability to focus on different segments. Great, but again, it sort of comes back to that sort of, do we have a central core to our doing it? Or do you have to almost like divest parts of the business, not by a regulator, like with BT coming in saying, you can't own all the hardware and offer the software of the call, you have to split up. But more of a, is this, I guess... I mean publishers can publish completely different, obviously, your background for the books and different authors. And that's okay because they are the publisher. Yeah, that's a really good example, actually. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because they have lots of different brands. And it's just possible, you might find that you need to have two separate brands, you might need to rebrand something, because you've there's this little group of people who are... rebranding is really, really hard because the Hip-Hops might really like the fact that it's a Barber, and that they want to get inside this kind of upper-middle class white thing, and actually say rebranding it for, you know, calling it Rap-Barbers would go really badly? Because again, no, that's not what we want. We want to get inside your posh barbers thank you very much. Exactly. Is it your appeal? That obviously it's appeals to them? What it is already? And then I think it's interesting to then see, well, you know, I suppose this just speaks really to the whole thing of this revolving around and under constant understanding, you know, sort of knowing, you know, where your brand is evolving into and where your customers are going, you know, where they are, I mean, obviously, you can see, are we getting more customers? Are we retaining the same customers? Are they referring to others? Or is our appeal sort of shifting because that's the other thing in the fact that I've was trying to make people aware the other week about, you know, all the external influences which are playing upon our brand, because it's quite often, you might think about your persona and your company or business you're offering in isolation, almost sort of, like just me and my customers, that's it. But no, it's me, my customers, and all these external factors which are acting on my customers like COVID, like, you know, heating crisis,

Sally Green 4:09
The cost of living crisis. Yeah, exactly.

Sam Birkett 4:11
Exactly, all this stuff. And that's why you've got to keep going back and thinking about, isn't it? So both in terms of pricing positioning, and how you're communicating that, you've got to keep that in mind? Because I mean, even though you could say, well, I don't know... if you take some, I suppose some brands which is interesting question, isn't it some brands which potentially they're not untouchable, but they have that longevity and also they have that very clear message like Rolls Royce. So utter luxury, utter bespoke luxury and motoring, I suppose is pretty much what you get, isn't it? You know, if money is no object, you get, you know, it's not going to be the best performing car in the world. It's just it's the badge. It's the brand and the fact that you can customise it handmade hand built, handcrafted the lot you know. Probably no one's ever going to see you in this car. It's just for your own. Perhaps you're just going to drive around, your estates. And that's what it's for, you know, but that's, I don't know. I mean, well, that's a whole nother thing. The luxury brands market is another question, I suppose but I don't know. I think it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, even they have to have that, who has the money now, you know, originally they would have been selling this to, you know, landed country, Dukes and Earls.

Sally Green 5:28
Exactly, and now it's popstars.

Sam Birkett 5:30
Now it's pop stars exactly, you know, and what is it that the pop stars what they want that lustre of the Spirit of Ecstasy and the Rolls Royce badge, don't they? But it's a different proposition again. But they're almost... almost I think there's a whole nother episode about all those brands, which sort of exist in this, I don't know how to describe it as really, but they are. They're not just household names, they are...

Sally Green 5:57
They are utter iconic images of something of luxury, or value, or that is that's really interesting, actually.

Sam Birkett 6:06
And interesting with Rolls Royce, because it's one thing that 99.999999999% of the population will never own, they will never even they might have, they might have a car. You know, we'll call it a key ring, or a model car. But that wasn't a Rolls Royce.

Sally Green 6:22
Or even getting one, or even probably get even close to one.

Sam Birkett 6:25
Yeah, exactly, ever get a ride in one, you know, the idea of Rolls Royce. Oh, well, you know, I mean, we're not talking Aero Engines here, which of course is the other past that but, but talking about the current luxury cars, it's just, you say Rolls Royce immediately, like a phantom car purring along the gravel driveway just comes into my head. And I've never been I never interested in buying one. Even if I had the money, I wouldn't buy one. But still, it's like, ooh, a sort of taking a breath, isn't it? But I'm going farther into the brand and exclusive brands now.

Sally Green 6:57
But is that but you're right? But it's as much to do with the persona? Because it's one of those questions you have to ask your customers. One of the insights about your personas might be how does this product make you feel? Does it make you feel happy? Does it make you feel... I mean, something, you know, sometimes my computer makes me feel constantly conflicted. Because I don't really know what bits of it do. But it still makes me feel happy. So why is that? What what are you getting into that? So personas of... also you might want to ask them? Is it what you thought it was? So we know, when you said I've got to buy this? Have you? Have you got what you thought you were going to get? That's a really interesting thing to do to personas.

Sam Birkett 7:42
Yes.

Sally Green 7:43
Because it might not that they're not cross. But they thought it was not anything like what I wanted. But it's absolutely perfect.

Sam Birkett 7:51
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As you said, I think that's a really interesting because, again, applying that time, isn't it? So before the purchase, after the purchase. I mean, in an ideal world, you'd get to all the people who ever had this need and didn't buy your product, all the people who ever had this need and considered your product, but didn't go any further, all of you who have this need consider your products, went a bit further or was bought but didn't. And all the different varieties of that isn't it to ultimate Uber, you know, I mean, obviously, it's easier to get to the loyal customers who's got a fantastic lifetime value, but all the people who consider it but didn't do it. That's where the real juicy insights about perceived barriers, and you know, everything else they're considering, their decision-making processes come into play. But getting to them and that's the sort of Holy Grail, isn't it? Really, I think of marketing insights.

Sally Green 8:43
And above and beyond that, it depends on your size of business and the kind of product you're selling, obviously. And this probably isn't for professionals, but those people that send products back. Because often one of the big selling points is our centres, have it for 30 days and send it back if you don't like it. And I think if that is one of the things that you offer, it's so unbelievably important to follow that up in acute detail. Why didn't you like it? not just oh, it didn't work, or the off button doesn't work or whatever it is, but because some people just send it back because they no questions asked. Well, I'm afraid you really, really, really ought to ask a lot of questions, not just to get about the operational attitude, but maybe it just wasn't light enough or people hadn't, I was expecting to carry this laptop around and loads of people that come up to and say, "Wow, that's a cool laptop", and nobody did that, so now I'm a bit embarrassed. I mean, it would be a really good bit of customer research to do if people send things back.

Sam Birkett 9:42
Oh, definitely. I think that's fascinating. Yeah, I think actually, as you were describing this as well, it made me think of all the times I've heard those adverts and it's usually a certain type of ad but isn't it we say, you know, if you don't want this your money back guaranteed in 30 days, you know, no questions asked. He said we actually should ask questions as you say absolutely. But also what motivates a company to do that in the first place? Because what would make you think? Because immediately, you're kind of...

Sally Green 10:07
Assuming they're not gonna like it!

Sam Birkett 10:08
Exactly. But it's almost like a double bluff, I think in a way, isn't it sort of like it's usually like vacuum cleaners or things like that doesn't say this the most amazing thing. But they're almost having to throw that in at the end there. Because this is probably a brand you haven't heard of. It's not a Hoover. It's not a Dyson. It's not whatever else at this moment in its product lifecycle, what maybe it's an insight, they found out that people don't trust them yet, even though we can say it's marvellous and incredible, and it gets a 50% more dust than anything else. But you've never heard of a twosie-woozy or whatever it is... interesting name.

Sally Green 10:41
I'll just write that down makes a brand.

Sam Birkett 10:43
Yes. twosie-woozy is a great, great brand. It's a dust cloud or suddenly being sucked up. But you know, you've never heard of it, therefore saying, you need that little perceived barrier of, well, I don't know the brand, therefore, it might be rubbish and I've wasted 100 quid, and that's really not good. Even though it's a good price. I'd like to have that sense of security of getting my money back. And once I've got it, I might go, wow, this is actually incredible. If it does everything you told me it would do and more. So of course, I'm never going to exercise that. I think it will be interesting to see how many people uptake the whole returning goods, as you say, after certain amount of time in the UK, as opposed to some of the markets. I think British people in particular being totally stereotypical, probably, oh, well, it's not all it's cracked up to be. But I can't send it back. I mean, it doesn't do what they told me. But no, it's all right, it'll do.

There are some things that I simply can't imagine how they've got, what kind of percentage does this and this is the biggest one is people that say, mattresses, keep this mattress for 100 days and if you don't like it, send it back. Well, to be honest, how unbelievably tricky and a faff is that. So you've got, you've already got rid of your old mattress. So you've got to send this back to his bed after 100 days. But you've got to make sure you've bought a new one, otherwise, you will have nothing to sleep on. Because that this mattress will have vanished. And then if you've struggled to get it up the stairs in the first place, that was a nightmare and it's torn your wallpaper. And now you're thinking, well, it's not quite comfortable, well let's send it back. No, let's not.

Yeah, I've got nowhere to sleep tonight! Well, that's an interesting one. Because that would be an interesting little sort of case study to build out and you say perhaps then as the marketers, do you then say or you know that companies say, well, yeah, I mean, you wouldn't. Surely you had it 100 days, as you say, you're not gonna go oh yeah, do you know what, unless it's absolutely killing my back or something and it's really uncomfortable and you go, no, no, no, you've given this best sleep guaranteed or whatever, then I need to get it replaced. If as an ancillary to that you say, well, we won't just replace it, we will give you a credit note back and actually organise for you help facilitate the buying of a similar spec with a competitor. I mean, that'd be really good. And then we'll get into the day we pick up to Don't worry that will come along when you don't need to do anything. Two people will come in the house, pick it up, replace it, and you'll have a new mattress. But even the sort of... unless something's really bad, I suppose you're likely to go "it's really nice to do that, gosh, they must have immense faith in their product", mustn't they really, really good. So it has to be really good, doesn't it? So you've got that just those little questions that you're, you know, it's a slightly manipulative sort of question which you raise in someone's mind. You think, oh, they didn't need to chuck that in. But they did it anyway, just to make me go oh, it has to be good. It has to be good, doesn't it? You know, and it's, I think that's really fascinating to see.

Sally Green 13:39
It would be really interesting to actually do some really interesting persona stuff on those people actually did do that. They actually did bother and faff and sleep on the floor for 20 days because their one didn't arrive in time. What is that persona, because that's probably a persona you need to market to, or you need to change your product. Because personas are as much about changing your product, because it's just possible that your, because your specific personas are constantly shifting, not radically, but gradually, if your persona shifts, your product has to shift with them. So you've absolutely got to make sure that your research and development people are on top of these personas as well. They've got to run all the way through your company, they've got to align like all your other business, they got to align all the way up and down.

Sam Birkett 14:27
Absolutely and critical thing to say about updating them with these qualitative and quantitative insights, isn't it? You say it's actually just having that data and you know, particularly if you're saying to a large customer order the customer base and you can see your segments quite nicely, neatly stacked up against their personas, and then you go okay, well, yeah, we can see there's a growing trend over time resistant to the pricing or I don't know, all business there's more and more people buying these things great. Is it the same people, is it not? And what's that data informing I suppose a lot of people start with a well, how do I... I can't get all of this from day one of opening a business, opening a cake shop, I don't necessarily know I can map out and guess who my segments and personas are, or get someone to do it for me, and then come in quite quickly again, afterwards, I start to get some data I start to get some people to talk to and then you know, you have to start somewhere, don't you as well, because I think a lot of people were a bit resistant to that. It's all very well, you saying all this stuff about, you know, this and that, and then we get on to information on people's like, well, I don't have any customers. But of course, you start with a hypothesis and then build on as we say, it's that evolution, isn't it? So evolving case, as you go, which is so important, but gosh.

Sally Green 15:44
I think we could talk about customers, I mean this spreads all over the place personas because then they turn to customers, and they tend to repeat customers, and then they tend to complainers or referers, so it grows massively. But I think we've kind of, we must stop until we get into the whole entire cycle, because all we started to talk about was personas, and getting insights about your personas. But it means that I think that... do not hide your personas in a cupboard. Because I don't want to be rude about any of our listeners. But I bet like me, you've hidden personas in a cupboard.

Sam Birkett 16:22
Exactly. And even, I think, you know, we've talked in the past about making links with your finance team and having good relationships with them. But perhaps as well, the persona of the finance team, just say, by the way, I'm just I'm doing this now as if you to sort of play devil's advocate, whoever or too deep to be my conscience, rather, it's taken me and my team, five days of our time to derive these personas, that's cost X number of thousands, can you remind me when we come back to reviewing the accounts next year, and I'm doing a budget, that's cost me that much money? Because I will that will drive me to actually make sure that I'm using these things, and making it happen, rather than locking them away.

Sally Green 16:59
Because you need to get return on them. You've got to get return on that effort.

Sam Birkett 17:08
Exactly. Exactly. And I think, I mean, gosh, this goes to budgeting and everything, doesn't it again, but about you know, so how much time are you budgeting for your persona work each year? And, for your whatever you want to call it, you know, your customer engagement, etc, you know, how much on a regular basis? How much on a quarterly or biannually annual basis? What are you doing? And then justifying that to yourself and your boss and your team and sharing with everybody and saying, Well, this is why we do this. And this could end up saving us thousands, millions of pounds because we're doing this, but also it keeps us on top of you know, the why, who was saying to you, what to do and this and everything else. But it's... yeah, so important to...

Sally Green 17:50
Yeah, put your personas at the centre of your marketing strategy, not floating out to the edges, and you occasionally see them.

Sam Birkett 17:57
Yeah, exactly. Because again, ultimately everyone says about being customer-focused and customer-centric so that this is the literal interpretation of having that centre of your piece here. And this little revolving loop at the centre is and getting those updates and getting back to them. Yeah, and testing them to test them all the time and understanding them. Just brilliant.

Sally Green 18:22
Brilliant. Thank you Sam. It's because we weren't quite sure what we were going to talk about this morning, and we went came in. Oh, how about personas and then we both suddenly got going?

Sam Birkett 18:31
We did! Well, I think it's wonderful.

Sally Green 18:34
No, I've enjoyed it too.

Sam Birkett 18:36
We hope others have found it useful as well. And yeah, I think it's, again, it's such fertile ground. It just doesn't you know, we have spoken about that before. But I think this time, we've added an extra layer of insight, hopefully, about insights. And it's something if you know, people want to contact us and talk about it. Then please do! You know, Gmail or find the podcast and yeah, comment on it online on Facebook and Twitter and whatnot, some places on LinkedIn, where we can come back and talk about it? Yeah, what do you do? Do you do you do this? Do you have personas locks in the drawer? Or are you really good and actually have them

Sally Green 19:15
Stuck on the wall?

Sam Birkett 19:16
Yeah. Or are you looking, they're sitting there now looking at them on the wall and going you know what? We're done three years ago and I've never been that convinced. I don't know... is Jim from Hartlepool... really? Or is he just as you say, does he exist in this mythical fantasy world, which is where we would like our customers to look like and what they like, but they don't?

Sally Green 19:44
Absolutely. So get them out, dust them off and have a good look at them.

Sam Birkett 19:48
Yes, work through them. Absolutely. 100% and get someone to help you with that and search-wise as well. So brilliant. Okay...

Sally Green 19:54
Brilliant!

Sam Birkett 19:55
And we got it!

Sally Green 19:55
Love to see you! As ever, you can find our podcasts all over the place. So wherever you search for your podcasts, look for Marketing Meanders, and you will find all of our podcasts, and we've now done nearly two and a half years worth I think?

Sam Birkett 20:08
Yeah, I think we're almost at 100, aren't we?

Sally Green 20:10
I think yes, I think we are. Yeah.

Sam Birkett 20:12
I'm right in saying. So we have said we will do like a 100th episode. Perhaps we should get back a load of people we've spoken to over the time and do a kind of a Megamix kind of 100th-anniversary thing. Yeah, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? Yeah. Well, we'll think about that some more!

Sally Green 20:27
We'll let you all know.

Sam Birkett 20:28
We will. We will. Thanks very much everyone. Take care!

Sally Green 20:32
Take care, bye!