Sam Birkett 0:05
Hello and welcome once again, back to Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam, and now it's part two of our podcast, anyway, I'll be quiet. And I'll let you carry on and listen to our conversation enjoy. It is that presentation isn't it, as you say, and again, joined up thinking about the presentation, but it leads me on to the merchandising thing. And then the whole thing, there's all these sorts of trends aren't there of, you know, because I assumed I met someone the other day who'd been to an event and they came back with... and sort of done a bit of you know, which it is, obviously, there's a whole sort of market intelligence things quite nice to go around and see what other people are doing. Of course, if you've got a clear idea of assigning some of the tasks of saying they look at the kind of thing they're saying what they're doing, perhaps, but it quite often invariably ends up where they go off and get the freebies. But I assumed naively perhaps, that post-pandemic, that people would be you know, and with the whole sustainability agenda, we'll be doing less of this sort of freebie, plastic pens, the bags, the bits and bobs, the pencil sharpeners, the, you know, all sorts of stuff, the sweets and things, you know, I thought oh, well, people for it might be a bit a little less inclined to do that sort of stuff. But I mean, obviously, there is an innate human thing that isn't about going around and getting your free bits and bobs. Like my, my wife used to go round to the teachers' conference, the big annual events and the whole thing was everyone we talking about, "How many tote bags did you get?" and how many bits and bobs of this sort of, you know, like a midnight feast, or like trick-or-treating almost, like going off and just here's all the stash comparing how much water bottles and USB sticks you got.

Sally Green 1:49
Yeah.

Sam Birkett 1:50
But it seems as if it's still very much alive and kicking anyway, for the amount of stuff that I was shown the other day that had been available in various stands, and there's always like a favourite item isn't there, which, which people find. But again, I mean, I think it says something about your organisation, I guess if you if you're out there saying we're the most sustainable handbag producers in the world, and we're really careful about how we manage our herds and access, you know, a source of our leather and any chemicals used or green and da, da, da. If you have all those green credentials, and then you have a whole load of plastic pens, one-use stuff all over your stand and things which are very much, you could see, are not very sustainable, then you've got a bit of a problem. So again, having that hat on is important, isn't it? So make sure that what you do share says that and it's also if you can get some sort of meaning behind it or convey something to the right people, then, yeah, I mean, that's a challenge. That is a challenge.

Sally Green 2:48
It is a challenge, and it's also there is a lot of guff and some of it's true, but one has to wonder how much is. Suppose I gave away, free phone covers, okay, which has got my logo on it. And they'll go "that's because they've always got to have your logo" and it'll constantly remind you about it's leather, and it's your handbag brand on the back of this leather, and they're constantly looking at it and the moment they need a handbag, they'll immediately find the telephone number you've cleverly put on it. No, they won't. Because it'll have become invisible to them to a certain extent. I mean, if I said to you, Sam, on your latest tote, what brand is your latest? The Tote you use most? Yeah, who knows?

Sam Birkett 3:36
Yes exactly.

Sally Green 3:37
There's a lot of guff about that and you have to think quite hard about how much value it actually has. But it'll be always on the desk because I'm getting to a jotter and it's constantly on the desk for them. Well, to start with no, it won't be, it'll be in their bag somewhere and they might kind of you know, look at it occasionally. Or they've stuck stickers all over it. And the value of them is hugely beefed up. In my opinion. She said Mrs Budget or Boring, but you know.

Sam Birkett 4:09
Well, I think it's, that's yeah, I mean because it's a really good point. Because you think well, how often do people... you know, I mean, I've always thought if you're going to have anything that is merch-wise, then something that is useful and utilitarian as it were, but it's, but it's so hard to match your purpose and what you're about, to a giveaway, and you could make something the fact that you say, well, we're not doing giveaways because you know, we're offsetting how much carbon by not ordering 1,000 whatever... tote bags or something, USB sticks. Exactly. I mean, but depending on I suppose, you know, again, your sort of sector and what you do, it's that sort of, you know, is there something that is meaningful, and you say as well sort of, if you happen to have a random brand That doesn't mean very much to you. And it's just a pencil or something, you use it, you know, it's not sitting there looking at the pencil go, Oh, I remember. Yeah, that was JSB dynamics, and they're really good at accounting software. Yeah, it's like...

Sally Green 5:13
Unlikely! Unless you actually signed up at the conference to JSB dynamics, then you might remember what the pencils are for. But otherwise, no you won't and actually, as you said, perhaps what you want to offer them to take away is sign up here and you will get a free something down the line. So we're not going to give you merch, we want you to give us your email address, and at the end of the conference, you will get an email giving you a 10% discount off this product. It might cost the same as the merch, to be honest, merch isn't free. So cost it out. It might be the same value and better long-term relationship with a potential customer if you give them a discount of something.

Sam Birkett 6:01
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And we could almost describe it as meaningful merch or meaningful merch opportunities. So it's more like you know, it's something that's going to mean something because I mean, the whole thing of merchandise and you know, things that you like, pop bands, you follow whatever like that, and you buy the t-shirt been there, for the t-shirt, yeah, you're gonna wear that t-shirt, because you want people out there to know that you're a fan of that group and there's meaningfulness there behind it. Whereas if it's a professional relationship with, say, JSB dynamics, without accounting people, it's obviously an important thing to do, but you don't need to walk around displaying the fact that you work with them. However, if, as you say, they say, Well, we're going to, we'll give you a free tax assessment for an hour or something like that. You can book in with us. So we've given you something, it might be a physical thing, a code or something like that, or hopefully more of a digital thing where you scan in or you visit a website. And we know it's you because you've got a unique code, and then we'll set up the meeting and give you an hour's blah, blah, blah. If that's what you're looking to do if you're looking to actually get people who might be clients, then that's a far more meaningful activity, isn't it? As you say, then I got a pencil. Brilliant! It's wonderful! I mean, I suppose it's interesting, but walking around, there's always gonna be a stance where there is nothing. Yeah, it's very little on there at all and I mean, I think in a previous job, we'd sort of gone from having lots of paper, lots of brochures and stuff and postcards, down to "okay, well, so at least there's something that someone's taken away with them and we've had a chat, and I've got something where I can put my details down". But again, it all depends on what you're looking to get out of it. Because if you're looking to say, "Well, I really want as many people as possible to know who I am and connect with me on LinkedIn. So I've got a big QR code to my LinkedIn profile, and whatever it might be, or maybe it is a business card with a LinkedIn profile on the back saying, connect with me, connect me in the next 20 days, and I'll do something for you for free, blah, blah, blah". It's all based around what you're trying to achieve, isn't it? I mean, a lot of people give that general, "oh, it's awareness" and like I said, right at the top, you absolutely can. You know, if you've got a presence at an event, and people are going past, you've got a good place to stand and you present yourself, well, people can go, oh, right, I see that brand, I understand who they are and what they do. I've clocked that, that's in my head. But that doesn't necessarily mean you need to spend, you know, £2.50 a head on USB sticks, a voucher and a sweet, its just rationalising.

Sally Green 8:43
And don't forget, it's not just the merch itself, the other bit of the budget, people tend to forget of course is, you've got to get to that merchant there. And you know, you might be putting the back of your car or your van, and that's fine. And it's not free, but all the same, you've got to put it back into your van. But you might well be shipping it. And that's not free. And the more rubbish you have to ship, the more it costs. And that tends not to be written into your budgets, it tends to kind of disappear somewhere. But it will affect the bottom line. Because at some point, you're gonna have to pay for that, you know, 25 boxes, each weighing, you know, half a hundredweight that went to that conference in Prague and never came back. That shipping thing back, the number of times you can go to places like "Oh, we did all those USBs for that conference. Why don't we use them again?" Yeah, well we can't use them again because we hadn't actually arranged any shipping back. So the person who'd flown there to arrange it couldn't bring it back so they just left them and died. That happens a lot. Shipping is one of the biggest mistakes in conferences, so if you're about to arrange an event, please, please, please remember that you're not just shipping it there, you're getting it back again. And the number of places I've been where I've done... I used to work for a publisher and publishing events, lots of them when you take lots of books with you, which get shipped. And once you're in the middle of I don't know, Lagos and wherever you've shipped this conference to, it's not easy for somebody who's actually got to catch a flight in 12 hours, to phone up a shipping company, and get them to come and pick the stuff up at the Conference Centre, which is closing in seven hours, you've got to set it up really, really careful with your shipping agents, your shipping agent has got to arrive at this time, this gate or whatever they got to collect it from, to take it all away. Again, it's not just gonna magically come back with the fairies and it's a huge waste of money if you sent stock there, which never comes back.

Sam Birkett 10:57
Yeah, oh, definitely. Definitely. I remember I went to, I think it must have been Warwick University or something that I think I was going to and I remember just distinctly, we were doing the whole thing. Well, we were packing everything up. And I think we had a courier, we had some stuff we were taking back ourselves and so we sort of did all this and we were packing all the way. I was thinking across it, it was two or three other companies who I think were a bit bigger than us to have a bit more money, I guess and basically, the people who've been working in the stands just went right there picked a list of their bags, their own personal bags, and went yeah, so see you Monday, cheers, off we go. And they sort of just strolled off. And then this team emerged and then set about deconstructing everything, packing everything away, putting all the shipping labels on, all neatly together these big conference boxes, and then, and then the carrier shipment people come in. And then it's all gone. And it was just it was military efficiency and I thought, well they must go to quite a few events. But also, they've done all that planning, as you say, and the amount of times I've lost banners and things like that at events, and as you say, other materials. And you say well, what was the point and you know, we print off 2000 of these things, we used 50 and the rest of somewhere in an airport. So, as you say, all of that logistical effort, planning it beforehand, and there are some very good services aren't there, which can really help you, deluxe package, get it all sorted out, so your people can concentrate they need to do but most of the time, it's people themselves. And it's just saying, right, I've got the shipping labels have done this, I know I need to go to this hallway here and wait for them. There'll be picked up in the next three hours off it goes. But yeah, you otherwise you can lose stuff quite easily.

Sally Green 12:41
The biggest problem is shipping labels, they really are one of the biggest headaches and the number of times, I'm not now, because I've learned the hard way when I've not had returned shipping labels. And then you might meet the people who are coming to pick it up. And they go, where's the shipping label? What shipping label? And they just won't take it away? And you're thinking, "Oh, why can't I just write the address on it?". It needs the barcode and the proper shipping label and I do see why that's the case. But if you don't have it, it's embarrassing and awful.

Sam Birkett 13:16
Absolutely, yeah, and it's all just part of it, I think, in general really, was sort of saying, you know, this needs to be careful planning and consideration. That's why I suppose, lots of the time why there's quite a lot of people, it's tricky for a larger team, there are people who also specialists aren't they at conference attendance and we haven't even gone into hosting your own event and conference, which is a kind of like at another dimension, isn't it really because you've got so much there to think about and clearly what you if you've got a venue and all the rest of the considerations, but you can see why there's quite a specialist talent for some of these larger, even smaller scale events, I mean, actually setting them up and your attendance at them. But if you don't have the luxury of having somebody who's a specialist in doing this stuff, that's why it's so important to have all of these things in mind, right from, you know, the long-term strategy goals, selection of conference, what you're looking to get out of it to prepare, getting there getting the stuff back and following up.

Sally Green 14:18
Yes.

Sam Birkett 14:18
There's an awful lot to think about rather than people might think, "Oh, well, I've just booked a ticket and rock up with some brochures". And yeah, because I think I think there is that... that some people sometimes, quite often like the idea that it gives them a chance to go to visit relatively exotic locations, somewhere outside of the conference centre of Stoke on Trent or you could be in Barcelona. You have to see but gives you a chance to see the world and even if you're only seeing an airport lounge and then a hotel room for one night and then a conference centre and off you go the amount of times I've spoken to people and they say I've just got back from Prague or something and they go, "wow, that must be amazing!". "Not really got a taxi from the airport, conference centre, and then came home the next morning at 6am and went to a hotel next to the conference centre".

Sally Green 15:09
Conferences are unbelievably stressful. I used to recruit for universities and there are big, you know, British Council events. But all the universities arrived to lure international students to their universities. And so you'll set up, everything fun. But then you have to hope that all your stuff has arrived in the middle of Lagos, this being a perfect sample, which made gave me a headache a lot. So you arrive on the day when it's all meant to be there. Everyone's setting up, your stuff hasn't arrived, and it's not as if you can phone the office and say, "Oh, could you nothing's wrong? Could you just carry a few things around?". Nothing's arrived. You've got nothing. So they phone the office except they're in a different timezone. So you can't. So then you find the airport, the airport isn't very helpful. You have no idea you for the shippers they don't know anything. Okay. So it's just me in the stand then. That's brilliant. And I'm not saying this was my idea. But we had some alumni who were coming to help talk to other students and they arrived and they all went, "Oh, where's the stuff?" And I went, "I don't know, it hasn't arrived. I'm not going to cry". And then one of them just went, "I've got a guitar". I thought, how is that going to help? But thank you. He said all I've got to do here is just to attract them to the stand, isn't it? And I went, well, that would help because then we can probably talk about it. "Yep. Right, I'm going to play the guitar". And nothing was more brilliant. We were the most popular stand. The other thing is one of the alums to just get free bottles of water. She just went and saw some somewhere, I don't like to ask. And so we have a guitar and water. And you think, yay, this is cool. And then we just talked to people about how wonderful Brookes University was, and that this is what you do when you go to Brookes University. But you think that you do sometimes have to do a lot of thinking around other corners, because the one thing you want, isn't there. And if you can't get it, you've got to think around it.

Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, that sounds amazing.

Yeah, I was very lucky and now I am immediately going to take a guitar player with me everywhere I go here to any kind of conference, you can play the guitar.

Sam Birkett 17:17
Well, fantastic improvisation, isn't it? That sort of... but again, I mean, interestingly though, if you're sort of trying to achieve these, the kinds of people that we have, who are here, and this is the kind of thing you could be doing, if you like, like this, that's great, you know, come along, and interesting how a situation like that forces you to deviate from the plan. So I suppose flexibility has to be in there, even though we're saying, very good planning is very important, but also knowing that there has to be some sort of form of contingencies. I mean, that's interesting in terms of, I notice people in the past who've done that, where again, shipping has been the thing that...

Sally Green 17:56
It was the biggest headache!

Sam Birkett 17:58
It really is, isn't it. But I, there's so many people I've worked with who... they've gone to a number of conferences, and they will go right, so we've got all the brochures, all the stuff in these three packing cartons, which are going off with the shipping, but then always, every time we say, "ah, well actually hold on. I've got my own stuff for carrying, but you know what, I'll take a load with me just in case if this, this and this, and we'll split it between us. So if the worst happens, we've at least got a handful of each of the things we need between us. So as long as we get there, we're okay". Yeah, it's little things like that, isn't it, which can really make a difference? And then the difference between having something and having nothing really helps you. But then again, an interesting question with this whole mopping up afterwards, this assessment of saying well, okay, say the shipping didn't arrive for some reason, or it arrived the day later or whatever. And then you go, well, was that a catastrophe? Well, no, do you know what it just gave us more chance to actually talk to people and we'd said, what we want to get out of this was starting 100 new conversations or something, and just jotting down someone's email address, say, for example, with GPL permissions, of course, and we did that. And actually, we had less time faffing about with the stuff. So maybe it creates insight for you about that event and other subsequent events, but how you organise yourself. So it's almost like, you just need to try and embrace the contingencies don't you, as well as having a clear plan.

Sally Green 19:31
And actually, if you're in a conference hall, the good stands or the stands that have got people, lots of people around them, actually, that means they're doing a good job. They've got lots of people around them and it doesn't really matter how that happens. It may not be your fantastic poster. People might walk past and think that's good, but they're not going to stop and say "oh, come over here and look at this poster". I went to another exhibition where one of the schools was teaching stuff about Formula One. And they had brought no brochures to their conference at all. Because they wanted to highlight this new Formula One course that was happening at that university. And so they shipped, and it must have cost them a fortune, a Formula One car. And that's all that was on their stand, literally all that was on their stand. And they have taken two academics who were going to strip it and put it back together again, over and over and over again. They got most people by miles at their standard watching. And then all their staff are talking to everyone that's watching and saying this is what's happening and that was a stroke of genius. They took no collateral at all.

Sam Birkett 20:47
Gosh, yeah. Well, it just goes to show again, that's an amazing example. But I mean, definitely summing up the whole thing of, you know, well, we want our people to engage with as many interested people in this subject as possible, what better way to demonstrate both your technical understanding and expertise in working on this, you too can do this and here you go. Here's an exciting thing, here's something interesting, very different. I mean, I've never been to an event stripping down a car or even a bicycle, let alone a Formula One car. And then rebuilding it. I mean, that's absolutely a stroke of genius and tuned into your audiences.

Sally Green 21:28
They did a really good thing, we all said to the people that god, what? People can't take anything away! And they said, No, that's because they made the decision that they only wanted people on this course who were going to try to get on that course. So they had to actually find a way to be interested in it and talk to somebody and get an email because there were lots of will there's talking with said "Oh, yes, give here's you have to look at this website da, da, da". But they didn't want people just going past taking it. They just "Oh, that looks interesting. I'll give it some give it to my mate". They wanted people going, "Oh, how can I find out about this? How can I find out about this?". You actually put their nose in the right place, which is quite a clever thing to do.

Sam Birkett 22:11
That is really good, isn't it? Because that's the thing as well. People are terrified of not having their name and their URL set up everywhere. But then these days, the fact that lots of adverts, things I advise on now just say, Well, you know, you'll find this out. Yeah, you know or search for us, search for Formula One, or whatever it might be, and you can find them. And yeah, it does make you think in general, I mean, if you're particularly going to an event where you know you are looking to engage directly with your audience, the people who are either the end users or the purchasers of whatever it is you sell. And if you can come up with just like the very best creative, you know, advertising ideas and things, isn't it just coming up with something that engages them and is meaningful and makes them go? Ooh, you know what I mean? Obviously far easier said than done. But if it's something like that, which is quirky, it's different, but it's got a deeper meaning behind it and it's as it's aligned to, well we want people to do this, then that is the perfect combination isn't it really? As you said, it's not cheap. But if you can say, well, yeah, we got 2000 people, visited the stand over that time and we've estimated at least 80% of them are potentially interested in this and we want to drive you to know, at least 1000 people to express interest, then you've done it and that might be a huge chunk of the budget. But...

Sally Green 23:37
You also know that your CRM is what helps you out here because I suppose they had, you know, there was no classroom, there's no special QR code or anything. And they'd use it or find us on LinkedIn or find something. You could look at your analytics and you should see a peak of people looking at the Formula One course around that after the conference. And you also know that those people that have signed up to that for and done it for, are really hot leads because they have really tried to find out about it, because you've got not giving them anything. So in a way it's a really good way to kind of segment your mailing list and say look, these people actually went to the bother to find out, well, let's chase them. Sales ought to be delighted.

Sam Birkett 24:22
Oh, absolutely. They'd 100% be delighted. I think that's a perfect positive note for us to sum things up, because I was thinking by the end of this, there will be a whole load of people going oh my god, I'm never gonna...

Sally Green 24:36
I'm never going to a conference in my life!

Sam Birkett 24:38
Or you'll never even go to one in the first place, this sounds horrendous! Yeah, I suppose in general, what we're trying to say is, just like any other market channel you're looking to use, it's sort of going into it. You will gain experience from doing things but also but going into it with your eyes open and having that clear understanding of where this sits in the strategy. It's most likely to be a pretty big investment of time and money, and money and time. And so if you can have this fantastic example you've got there if you do have something along those lines it can really reach out and be meaningful as aligned to something you're trying to achieve, then you've gives you the best possible chance. Of course, if you've got the good logistics in place, as well, then that will actually make sure it can happen.

Sally Green 25:24
And they are great fun! They just are genuinely good fun, not only that, you're gonna meet your audience and have a great time talking to them. But it's really useful meeting all your competition, actually, and a lot of them are really nice and you might have great fun actually talking and you get great ideas from them. And they're very proactive about everything and so you know, you're all in the same bundle of space, and you're probably all staying in the same hotel. So you know, remember to have a lot of fun while you're doing it.

Sam Birkett 25:52
Yes, absolutely, because that's something we haven't sort of mentioned too much about is it really is that human connection with other people and seeing that other people are human beings, they're not just brands, and websites, you know, there is that connection, and particularly now, again, getting out and seeing people and you know, actually practising those skills of, you know, I suppose, because you know, your own personal brand, as well as your company, it's making yourself known and getting to know other people in your market, isn't it? And it's the market you're looking to progress in? That's actually a very important personal development piece as well. Isn't it?

Sally Green 26:30
Impossible to get another job at a conference? So you know.

Sam Birkett 26:33
Exactly. Oh, yeah, they know how to strip down a stand very well and they know their way around shipping labels! Well, that's the thing, I think it's great. It's great for those sorts of things as well. So yes, I think it's very good to encourage constructive and well-planned conference attendance, which can also be you know, it should hopefully be good fun. If you don't come away thinking, oh, gosh, that was a waste of a day or two days. And you know, you've got something there and quite frankly, even if for the best-laid plans, the conference doesn't, you know, tick all the boxes that you need, then at least, you know, perhaps a) perhaps to do things differently next time, or b) perhaps not to go yeah, go to something else or not go at all. Testing!

Sally Green 27:22
Testing, testing, testing and planning, planning, planning are the two big words, aren't they really?

Sam Birkett 27:27
Definitely, definitely, as we always seem to return to it, which is good. So I think it's important. Well, thank you. That was wonderful, wonderful to talk through conferences, and hopefully, well, hopefully, the people listening who have been or are going and are planning conferences again. So you might have some observations about this. And if you do, then, let us know, let us know what you think about this, your experiences. It's also fun to share those and I might put out a poll about conferences, perhaps just ahead of this episode and we really think that'd be fun. So yes, you can find us @meanderspod of course. Search anywhere just look up Marketing Meanders, and you'll find us out there in the ether and obviously you can listen to us here on the podcast. So without further ado, thank you very much Sally, I really enjoyed that. Yeah, look forward to next time everyone.

Sally Green 28:15
Bye everyone!

Sam Birkett 28:15
Take care everyone!