Sam Birkett
Hello, everyone, welcome back and it's part two of our looking at imperfect marketing campaigns and reasons why marketing campaigns fail. So please, yes, listen on!

Sally Green
By and large, campaigns fail or don't succeed as well as they should because everything hasn't quite gone, right, everything's been a bit... all the communications have been a bit fuzzy, rather than black and white wrong. Yeah, everything's been a bit late or a bit early, or the websites, almost... the landing paper is almost right but not quite and there's no blame there. It's because people don't have time. They don't have the energy, or the right person. But it's also, some of it's subjective. The fact that you didn't like it marketing director doesn't mean that it was wrong and you do have to be against that, I don't like it. It's not right, it's a dangerous thing to say.

Sam Birkett
It's interesting you say that as well because I was thinking about the whole... So I'm going to refer to shortly, to a Forbes article, which we can link in our description here about this episode, which is Eight Common Reasons Why Marketing Campaigns Fail. But it does make me think about, as you say there's that... not even necessarily a sixth sense, you get but a very, very obvious demonstration of the fact that some campaigns you're involved in, you're like this isn't right, this isn't going to work, or this isn't working? And perhaps it's a longer-term thing. But you're sort of going I sort of need to be the whistleblower here, sort of saying that, you know, I really don't think this is going to work because of, usually constraints, or as you say, there's like, right from the word go, something just hasn't been quite right or the execution at every stage has not been quite right because you don't have the people concentrating enough on it, or you don't have clear communication or these other eight reasons we'll go into, but it's that... I mean, I've had that several times you think, ooh no, this isn't gonna work. So you think what can I do to change it now? Can I put my hand up and actually make a change and change direction, then I've had times where, you look at the project or campaign in thirds, that the first third starts off, you think, Oh, this isn't going the right way. I can see this is going to be wrong and then people go, Okay, it's kind of it's crashing and burning in the second phase, the second third and so then you make some changes in that middle part and then by the end, sometimes you can really turn it around, and you go, wow, that actually, we got it to where it should have been in the first place or as I was saying earlier, it goes in a different direction. But there's that sickening feeling sometimes isn't there, where you think, oh, no, this isn't fit for purpose and I need to say so.

Sally Green
And sometimes it's not that the pictures are wrong, or the messaging that's wrong, it's that the expectations behind it all wrong. So you've set this campaign up as oh, this is going to get us 8000 leads in six weeks, or whatever your expectation was and you can kind of tell it's not going to do that from the word go. But you don't say let's stop it now because this isn't going to work. You go oh, it's a slow burn it Oh, it's not going well? It's just going to pick up I'm sure and really, you need someone to go, is it really? And actually, that gut reaction is often you can't write it down. You're really right Sam it's just this gut reaction. This isn't working, and it's impossible to put words into it's just not working.

Sam Birkett
Yeah, as you say, because it's probably small elements of multiple factors, rather than one overriding oh, this is the issue isn't it and I mean, well, funnily enough, you've actually preempted one of the eight reasons that the Forbes article says! So I'm just gonna run through and just mention the eight reasons and perhaps we can pick a few apart, everything we missed. So I think we've mentioned some of these already. So this is basically this article talks about why marketing campaigns sometimes do go wrong. These are they think, the eight most common reasons. So number one, not enough budget, we've all been there, misguided objectives, unclear positioning, weak, unclear calls to action, I suppose we all probably...

Sally Green
Or no calls to action! You bet you can go now and find the campaign, the part that you've been invited to and they've got no call to action at all!

Sam Birkett
Yeah and it's kind of like just leading you down the garden path to nowhere, that's the thing. The customer experience barriers, so I think yeah, customer experience. So I mean, that's an interesting one, because the relation here, they mentioned about sales teams and other areas where, you know, with the best intention in the world, you wanted the customers go on this beautiful path and it didn't work because of another team potentially. So another sort of constraint. It doesn't stand out. Now, it's an interesting one. Because about yeah, the creativity, the creative element, is it actually... is it creative and does it stand out? Does it actually appeal to people in the first place? Relying on a single channel, I thought was interesting, because I think we're all...

Sally Green
Because that's very tempting to do. Oh, all my customers are on LinkedIn. It's very sensible, especially B2B and people will say, Oh, I don't need to do anything else and that's... why don't you try something else? Because these things aren't massively expensive. Yeah, have to waste money to try other channels.

Sam Birkett
Well, that's it because it again, it's it gets down to that path of, well, we've always done it this way, or we've always tried it. This is the way they are and this is how we need to do it and I mean, even within the platform itself, within the channel, you say, well, we've always just done sponsored posts, and that's what we do and you go, Well, no, perhaps we could look at it differently. I mean, there is actually this is probably a completely different topic, actually. But in terms of using creatives and multiple platforms, to create an interesting journey, customer journey, really understanding... I mean, I know I've banged on about customer journeys in the past, but really understanding your customer journey, and trying it out is important, but I don't want to go off topic! Unrealistic expectations, which is exactly what you've just gone into, so yeah, exactly, people thought that it was going to do this one thing, and then it actually did something else.

Sally Green
Or you feel pressured to say those expectations so the strategy has said we've got to by the end of the year, we've got to have 12,000 more active people in our CRM. So it puts a lot of pressure on everyone's campaign has got to achieve people onto the CRM and actually, maybe this see this campaign isn't going to put anybody else onto the CRM, but we're going to make 12 sales. They might not want... they might not be... they may have... all they need is this one thing, they're never going to need another one, they might not go on to the CRM. So be careful about what you're actually thinking about.

Sam Birkett
Yeah, because that's the thing, isn't it, and again, that's right back to the beginning about you know, your plans, it's clearly stating at the top of your plan, this is what this is doing. This is the goal. These are the objectives that support the goal and then these are the tactics that support the objectives that support the goal. So it's just that sort of really clear, because otherwise, yeah, someone's going, Oh, but yeah, I thought this was going to, you know, give us this and you go, no, no, no, no, it's never going to give us that because look, it's stated right here. This is what we said we would do, if we want to change that or I mean, because I don't know, you say you could start off with a content campaign, you're like, well, all we're looking to do here is just to build interest in a new type of handbag we're doing from our Cotswold Handbag shop, back to the handbags, a new type of I don't know, a new manufacturing technique or something. So we're trying to get people to buy into the artisan ship of how we produce these and, you know, you're not driving direct sales...

Sally Green
But we hand stitch everything and that's what we want people to focus on.

Sam Birkett
Exactly, yes. The hand stitching it is, it's the craft that we're doing and everything. So, yes, ultimately, we want people to then you know, buy into the brand and then you know, come on board and visit the shops, and blah, blah, blah. But from on the back of that there's perhaps one craft person you focus on and then they sort of development of a following and then turns out that they've developed a new little, I don't know, a purse, or something or a clutch bag or something which they develop and then you go, wow, people really want to buy these. So all of a sudden, it's become not about just telling the big story. It's about this is direct sales on this line. So maybe we switch focus. But again, your expectation originally will be very different from that. But again, that is then structuring of how you work with the teams, isn't it? That's your regular check-in, where are we going?

Sally Green
It's also very important not to feel hugely discouraged if your plan does seem to not be working. It's not necessarily in inverted commas 'wrong'. It just means isn't quite right. It's very tempting to look at plans and go, Oh, that was hopeless, it probably wasn't hopeless because you didn't, you will have reached some people unless you completely trashed the brand, you will have some people will have noticed what you've done, you will have made some traction and you've also learned from it. So two things have happened, you've made a little bit of traction with your customer base and if it hasn't been as big as you hoped it to be, you've learned stuff about how to do it better next time.

Sam Birkett
Yeah. Oh, definitely. I think that's the thing, isn't it? Because it's, again, with that circle diagram thing I was saying about learning and improving. I do a session about metrics, marketing metrics and saying that metrics allow you to see so that you can keep an eye on where you are performing against the goals, the objectives you have, you know, but it's this thing of like, they're not just going to say at the end of it, well, this worked black and whites This worked or it didn't. This is a good campaign. This is a bad campaign, because there's no, again, because that comes back to our bit at the top, there are only imperfect campaigns, and they're only ever opportunities to learn and do something with that learning. I think it's the doing something with the learning, which is very important isn't because you can say, yeah, that didn't work. Okay, well, we won't do that again and then you just, you know, close the book on it and say, right, if we just ignore that stuff from now on. But hold on, it's probably a little bit more nuanced and complex than that and what is it that we did discover? So I think digging a bit deeper, you kind of need to have as opposed to sort of, if you're managing that campaign, you either need to have that idea that that's what you'd like to do every time or you have something set up in the sort of the culture of the team, don't you where you say, well, we always try and learn we accept 'failure' in inverted commas and say that, you know, yeah, things won't work properly. But for various reasons let's do a debrief and try and understand what has happened to my old boss, one of my first bosses always said we are where we are, what can we do now? You know, and it's so much better I think, particularly when I don't know and I don't know if people... you know, the latest generations coming in have this or not, but this fear of failure or fear of saying the wrong thing, getting things wrong, I think people certainly when I... it's my personality type, I guess anyway, but certainly, when I came into the working world, I was really quite terrified, again about getting something wrong.

Sally Green
Me too.

Sam Birkett
And as soon as you start having a budget, you think, Oh, shit, I'm actually spending other people's money, other company's money on something now, if this doesn't work, this is appalling. I've got to make it right. But if you have a culture that's very supportive of I mean, okay, not just saying, you know, spend a million quid tomorrow and then if it doesn't work out, then hey, nevermind, it's more of a proportionally you're taking that into account, isn't it and thinking, Okay, well, you have a healthy environment in which it's okay, to fail and to learn and clearly if you're being managed correctly, then you're not going to allow someone to just come in and blow a million quid, just like that, you know, you have it in phases, and you split it up. But again, that comes back to that sense, doesn't it? That sort of gut instinct of, obviously using the metrics and everything but going, is this heading in the right direction? According to our sort of, you know, not loadstone but our thesis here, which is a hypothesis. This is what we want to achieve. But in order to do that, you need to know you need to have a very clear idea of what that goal is, as well.

Sally Green
Because actually, you don't know whether.... if you haven't got a goal, or you haven't set the campaign's target, then you don't know whether you're failing or not. If your campaign target was gonna get 10 leads, and you only got one that's not so great. But if you don't know it's 10, then one might be tremendous.

Sam Birkett
Yes, yes, exactly and that's the thing, isn't it? It's having that relativity in relationships of things, isn't it just knowing where you are, which is so important? But I think we've kind of, we've covered most of these as to a certain degree, I suppose anything is, yeah, only things about creativity, it doesn't stand out.

Sally Green
It doesn't stand out one is a really interesting one, because then you've got all your stakeholders' expectations and at the end, that could be very easy if it hasn't worked, oh well, that's because it didn't stand out and it's important to recognise what that actually means. What do you mean stand out? Do you mean, it was not on enough channels? Do you mean, it wasn't the right colour? Do you mean that the messaging wasn't right? So you've got to dig into that it's a bit of a broad brushstroke statement and as you said before, it's probably part of all of those things. The same thing if it doesn't stand out... I find that a bit uncomfortable... I agree with what they're saying, but I'm very uncomfortable with it.

Sam Birkett
I am actually, the more, I mean, I'm just reading the elements of it as well now, and in fact, they're saying, look at the competitive landscape and take note of your category and the standards that are there, and then figure out how to break them and be different. It's like, well, but it's a very subjective thing. You don't... if you can't measure it. As you say, you just say a very general statement. Oh, well, it didn't... It clearly wasn't, you know, appealing and often stand out. Have you got focus groups? Have you got a primary market research? Which demonstrates, I mean, great! Yeah, absolutely. If you are doing that, you're in a position where you have the budget to run, you know, market research beforehand and then during the campaign, and you're monitoring, the sentiment and the engagement of everything, and, you know, I mean, if you were running, I suppose you like the experiment and if you were to control kind of like, this is what we always do kind of creative. This one's a bit... not necessarily wacky, but this one's sort of this end of the scale, this one's at the other end of the scale...

Sally Green
Like testing. That's a valuable thing to do.

Sam Birkett
Yeah and if you've done that testing, and you go, well, we can see that clearly, we didn't do enough of this stuff. That was very different. But then again, all this flags to me is the constraints because it's all very well saying we need to just break all the standards and do things very differently. But you're having to pitch that at the beginning. You know, perhaps if you're coming in as an external saying, Look, you always do the same stuff. Why don't you do something that's really interesting and wild and out there? And then people go, yeah, okay. We'll get behind that. We'll do it and then you do it and it's a miserable failure. I mean, it's not necessarily failed because you've gone crazy, it could be that you really did stand out to people.

Sally Green
Yeah, and they hated it!

Sam Birkett
Exactly. Everyone thought oh no, this is rubbish or that's great. But I see there's no relation to me buying this handbag, for example. So it hasn't delivered on the expectations again. So it's knitting all these up together and married together, isn't it which is the key otherwise you could be massively creative, like the neuromarketing thing I watched a fascinating thing about it and they said about, you know, a great creative can excite all the right areas of the brain to go this is really exciting, amazing, great 10-second video, wow, I feel inspired and then the call to action is either at the wrong time, or it's the wrong call to action, or there's various relationships to the kind of actual goal you have, you know, to buy something to comment to like to share whatever and you just go oh, that's fun. Yeah and that's it and then that's the end of your interaction. So it's ticked all the right boxes apart from the most critical one, you know, so again, the creative thing. Yeah, that's the tricky one.

Sally Green
It's also very temperamental. So the creative one's very interesting because it builds, that's very interesting, I'll break it and make something different. But there are some cases where that's just not appropriate. We both have a slightly academic background. So it would be unwise, I would suggest, to market expensive monographs about let us say, the political situation in Ukraine with TikTok videos. I'm not saying it's impossible but possibly unwise. Don't break it without really thinking about what breaking it means.

Sam Birkett
Yes, exactly. It'd be different for different sake...

Sally Green
Yes, that's right.

Sam Birkett
...Rather than doing it in a way which is more structured and, yeah, I think there's I suppose it's in general sort of trying to achieve that balance of creativity, not being afraid to try new things, of course but have the metrics to back it up, I suppose, is the key thing I'm saying, isn't it. But there was this interesting point here, which I guess, the customer experience barriers, which does connect to what we were talking about. So it suggests that you need to fix any issues in your customer experience before increasing marketing spend, which is very good. So marketing can't be a sort of panacea that helps, you know, fix all these problems that you have. There's actually a guy I work with now who has a session and training, which focuses on customer service as being a marketing channel, key marketing channel, which is true. But then also interesting ways in which you can actually do something about that, you can actually turn it into, I think, as a company I used to work in the part of the marketing team was the customer experience, guys. So they were actually in the marketing team because we were all to do with, you know, managing this online community and that made complete sense. I'm sure that's what a lot of places do, actually. But it's, yeah, it's like we're saying, again, like your example of the warehousing and the sales team, are you lined up? Are you aligned?

Sally Green
Are you aligned? Exactly! Your customer service team are probably the people who are going to get closest to your customers than anybody else. We might love the marketing, leveraging wonderful content, which is just perfect and putting it on the perfect channels. But we don't actually very often talk to or meet a customer.

Sam Birkett
No.

Sally Green
Really, because you're probably behind the desk doing things behind the computer, whereas the customer service teams are on the telephone, to them all the time, or actually zooming with them or doing whatever they're doing and making sure that they are absolutely part of the marketing experience and the marketing campaign is really important and it's really important that they get it right so that when they pick the telephone up, I mean, this might be one of the reasons that campaigns don't work, because you've not involved customer service. So if they're picking the phone up saying... if your main talking point is this will be with you tomorrow, or whatever it's going to be and if they're picking the phone up saying listen, I want to order it because I can have it tomorrow. If the customer services team is going, ooh well, the trouble is possibly not till Thursday, then you should have found out that's a problem before you started running this campaign and more to the point, if it was fine when you press the go button, keep checking, if now your campaign is working so well, that the customer service team is overwhelmed that they can't do it tomorrow anymore, change your campaign.

Sam Birkett
Yeah, yeah. That's so so important, isn't it? As you said, it's something that it's overheating.

Sally Green
That's right.

Sam Birkett
And you haven't... and then you could completely undermine your entire, you know, killed off by your own success. It's so important to do that, isn't it?

Sally Green
So keep talking to all your stakeholders, and they are probably one of the key ones, is customer service.

Sam Birkett
Yeah, definitely. Well, we've cracked that one as well. Brilliant, and we talked about calls to action, didn't we I mean, I think particularly in the sort of areas I work in, there's lots of interesting content-related campaigns, there's lots of stuff to talk about and engage with and blah, blah, blah, blah. So you can have multiple calls to action, and you lose the primary call to action, which is something like that. It's a bit of a mantra. I mean, I personally have to keep on reminding myself saying what is the call to action? What's the call to action? And I don't always get it right. I think it's just like you do need to be reminded of it and then get someone else to look at it and say, what are you trying to get me to do? You know, I think it's that question, isn't it? And if it's not clear then...

Sally Green
I talk about this a lot to students and one of the biggest things I say is you've got to remember that the customers... the people who are seeing, the people that see it are 1) lazy, 2) they can be really stupid and 3) they're just too busy to bother. So really don't make your call to action too long, complicated and put it on everything, don't ever suppose anything. It might be, please share this or please like this or just click the subscribe button or tell them nice, easy, straightforward things that they've got to do don't say, sign up to our website and find out more about this course tomorrow. People just won't. They just won't.

Sam Birkett
And again I guess that just comes back to doesn't it, sort of well, yeah, what are you trying to achieve at this phase of this? You just want to drive people to this website, they just need to go and watch this video, they just need to go and they need to click on this and give us the details or whatever. It's just really focus on it. Focus, focus, focus, focus, and then go back and focus again, repeat, just get it everywhere.

Sally Green
And don't forget that while they watch the video, there should be a call to action at the bottom of that as well. Don't think that they're going to carry through this interesting and go, well I've been asked to do this. I may as well try and find out what to do for myself now. Because they don't.

Sam Birkett
Definitely, yeah, it's sort of it's almost giving your audience too much slack. Like, no, no, this is where we need you to go and what you have to do. Of course, if you decide to deviate, and you go and explore other things, then it's a free country you do that, fine. But I'd like you to do this, because I think this is important to you, because I'm sort of hopeful... But yeah, and I think that's an important one. Isn't it really? The next one, yeah, unclear positioning. So yes, it says, lack of clear positioning is a recipe for failure, which is true. So without having an understanding, well, again, similar to the call to action really, but sort of demonstrating why this is valuable to the audience member, then they're not going to get it and again, it's that call to action mantra, it's that sort of mantra of again, says it's what you want me to do with a call to action then the so what is the thing, I suppose, the so what factor is the thing I sort of apply here.

Sally Green
That's exactly what it's all about identifying the audience in the first place and you must remember that you've probably got multiple positionings here. It's not about this one thing is going to suit everybody. It might be this bit's gonna suit these people, this bit I've got to change a little bit, because these people think slightly differently. So you might have multiple positions, you've got to hit.

Sam Birkett
Yeah and then there's the, I say the fun in inverted commas of then doing the analytics on that, and actually to say, and is that so? Are we sure that we are actually achieving this with these people. Is this positioning actually correct, or not? Which I think is yes, it's important and it misguides objectives, we've kind of covered that I guess haven't we really? You know, there's a lack of a measurable objective and that's another thing I've been doing with this training recently, just this whole thing of going back to say, well, you know, give me your objective in a sentence and does that sentence contain, you know, obviously, the SMART objectives? Is it time bound? Is it measurable? So on and so forth, and achievable, realistic, and all the rest of it? And do you think well, so often, perhaps it is a bit of a vague thing? And if so, I think if someone in a senior position says we kind of need to do this, it's sort of what we want to, you know, the chief one is, this is like, we want to build awareness.

Sally Green
Oh god yes.

Sam Birkett
And you go build awareness. Okay. So you think, okay, great. Well, that's the starting point, we want to build awareness. Okay. We want to build awareness... with which group? Over what timescale? How are we measuring that? So what do we mean by awareness? Do we mean awareness, as in what we're getting so many people to actually come in, individual people to visit this website, and then do something else, or we're getting them to follow us and so we are actually, we're building awareness, we're actually building initial engagement, getting people to come and be involved and want to hear more from us, or what exactly do you mean by awareness?

Sally Green
And awareness of what? Awareness of our brand? Awareness of this product? Awareness that our website doesn't work very well? Awareness of what?

Sam Birkett
Yes, yes. That's the thing. So that a fact anyone. And it's usually not, no one comes out and goes, right, guys, what we're going to do this, we want to build awareness. That'd be like, a phone call kind of thing is more of a sort of, oh, we just want to you know, everyone sort of has a pre-fess before it. So we want to sort of build awareness. You know, it's just a sort of awareness campaign thing, you know, and also, if it's gone wrong, you afterwards can say, Oh, well, it's just an awareness builder.

Sally Green
Just an awareness builder, yeah.

Sam Birkett
You know, that's sort of all we needed it to do. But if you come back with those sets of questions again, you know, sort of what is it of? What time scale? Who's it for? What are we looking for them to do? And yeah, just how do we measure that? How do we understand it?

Sally Green
I have sometimes read in plans, the really fatal words '10% more awareness'. 10% of what?

Sam Birkett
Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Sally Green
A person is 10% more aware? What does that mean? Just because it's got a percentage in it, doesn't mean it's smart!

Sam Birkett
Yes. Yes, exactly. Well, that's it, isn't it? And I think it's that... something I suggested in a recent training was say it out loud, say it out loud to yourself several times, then say it out loud to someone else, and then they can go. Oh, yeah, I get that. Yeah, I see what you're doing. You know? Yeah, that makes sense. Great. Okay, now we can build and Oh, yeah. But you've got to have that you've got to have that. Gosh, we're nearly there. We've got not having enough budget. Well, yes. I mean, we've all, we've all had that problem.

Sally Green
Or indeed having the budget taken away halfway through. And it's another one of those examples where you've just got to be agile then, and you have got to think outside the box and find other ways of doing it. Don't give up. Just do something else.

Sam Birkett
I mean, and that can be... I think we've said it in a budget one previously. Necessity is the mother of invention and the fact that, you know, I've always had a time where I said, I remember my entire marketing budget was removed, once, like, Oh, great. So... what now? There's always going to be that initial like, Oh, for heaven's sake, this is ridiculous and, perhaps using slightly more fruity words than that, but... and then the Okay, right. So, what can we do? And then hopefully, being optimistic, you discover something fantastic that only costs you time and not budget, because the thing is...

Sally Green
There is organic stuff that you can do.

Sam Birkett
Yeah, which you didn't focus on enough, because it was always so easy just to buy this set of adverts with this and get this agency to do that for you and this and, you know, actually, then it really forces you to focus, doesn't it? And come back to you. You're always gonna learn something, I think from it. But yeah, I mean, there's also well, there's a couple of subcategories around the budgets as well around not have enough spend in the budget too long to run for long enough to achieve your objectives. Or the spend is too low to build up the adequate frequency, your campaign can't generate enough traffic and leads to see a sale. So I suppose it's all about thresholds that you need to meet. So again, it's sort of the budget being accurate, I suppose as well, and thinking well, yeah, based on the available... because, again, it's an imperfect world, you can only do with the available data you have can't you, and if you say, well, we don't have masses of data, but we do have... we have tried this in the past, we know is this much cost per click or cost or whatever, to achieve this sort of realistic objective, therefore, we can put this forward now and then right the front of you then have to justify that to some manager or director and they go okay, well, you need to realise 2000 sales, not 200 and you say, Okay, well, if I scale this up, this is what we can achieve. So I'm going to need this much budget to do that and then again, it goes into the cycle and you come back around the end and say, Well, did we manage to achieve that or not? Again, you're you're sticking to the numbers, aren't you very clearly, which is good. So I think we've gone through all of them. My goodness, so we've cracked that!

Sally Green
Oh good lord!

Sam Birkett
I should say the article, I mean, I'm sure we can include a link to this and it's John Keeler, who's Chief Strategy Officer at Runner Agency. So this was written for Forbes and yeah, it's an interesting article to look at, I mean, it was it was done in August last year.

Sally Green
But you don't think any of it's irrelevant now?

Sam Birkett
No, no, I think I think lots of these are sort of no long-term factors, which have affected marketing teams, for a long time and will continue to for so long time, I'm sure. But no, it's interesting. I think, hopefully, we can kind of, who knows...

Sally Green
We've rambled through it I think!

Sam Birkett
Rambled through, meandered through the imperfect campaigns, and then specifically why you can see some campaigns failing and what I really liked came out I think, was the sort of the one-page debrief.

Sally Green
Yes, I think that's exactly right. It's a really sensible suggestion for you, it does make people look back at it.

Sam Birkett
Yeah, yeah and then you hopefully, then that's a tool you can use to sort of encourage this culture of learning, isn't it and cycles of your campaign

Sally Green
And share that don't put him in a cupboard somewhere. Share that debrief.

Sam Birkett
Yes. Yes, absolutely. I think that's really helpful, but good, well, I mean, obviously, I don't know...

We've sorted that out then.

Hopefully, people out there found that useful as well. So if you have then please do get in touch with us. You can find us pretty much anywhere, @MarketingMeanders, or we can find Sally and myself on LinkedIn, of course, we're very good there.

Sally Green
And then you can subscribe to them. So you get a pop-up wherever you subscribe, and then they will come straight into your inbox.

Sam Birkett
On our clear call to action, of course. But apart from that, I think we're probably done today. So...

Sally Green
That was brilliant. Thank you very much Sam.

Sam Birkett
Thank you, Sally. And yeah, take care everyone. Bye for now.

Sally Green
Bye!