Sam Birkett 0:06
Hello, and welcome once again back to Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam, and now it's part two of our podcast anyway, I'll be quiet and I'll let you carry on and listen to our conversation. Enjoy!

Sally Green 0:18
Matt, is it an expensive thing to do? Can you do podcasting cheaply?

Matt Eastland-Jones 0:23
Yes. Yeah, so when it comes to kind of, if you think about every step of podcasting, I mean planning and strategy, that just takes time. When it comes to recording, there are a number of ways that you can record podcasts without spending much money. So in an ideal world, you get a couple of good microphones. Sally, the one that you and I are using costs £100, around that, you can plug them directly into your computer, you can even plug them into your phone. If you just wanted to record, you know, just one person, you plug directly in your phone, you can start recording. When it comes to editing, most computers come stock with some form of editing software, it's likely perhaps a video editing software. But you can use that to edit podcasts that might take, you know a bit of time to learn how to do that. But you know, a quick YouTube search, you'll find a couple of really good tutorials, and then hosting as well, you have to host your podcasts. It's similar to a website in that sense. But there are hosting providers that let you host for free. So you have Anchor, that's owned by Spotify now, so I believe, if you use Anchor, you can only have your podcast available on Spotify. But Spotify is the second largest podcast host. So you'll still be able to access a large number of listeners, or there's some other hosting platforms as well, that have free tiers. So yeah, you can do podcasting very cheaply, you will just have to put in a lot more of your own time to learn, you know, all the skills required to do it.

Sally Green 1:53
Yeah, and actually make the time to do it because editing isn't a necessarily quick thing to do. It depends on the quality of the podcasting, and how many mistakes, you know, dog barks, doorbells, etc., etc., you have to edit out, but it's, as you say, it's a time expenditure, and the kind of patience expenditure and you know, I've been very, very lucky doing this with Sam, because I really, really hate editing with a passion. Whereas Sam has always been very patient about, you know, taking crises out and you know, making it sound vaguely coherent.

Sam Birkett 2:23
Well, that's the thing, I think we've got a good level of coherence, but you do this back to yourself and go, Oh, gosh, why was I sort of, I mean, for me, I seem to have, like I'm doing now I seem to go... and I can't make sense of my words for a few moments. But then that sort of segues beautifully back into the confidence sort of area, doesn't it? Which I mean, that's come up several times, I think in the conversation and when we were talking about this previously, the idea of, do you have the confidence to start? Because for a lot of people hearing their own voice or thinking, can I actually talk about this? You know, do I have enough to talk about? Am I going to make any coherent points? Am I going to do something that is, you know, seen to others to be useful? I suppose that depends on who you are and your personality. But I guess there is that, I think you described this as like a bubble to burst at the beginning of the fear bubble of is this right for me. I mean, you're not necessarily the person who's actually presenting, of course, but when you're talking to people, when they're starting out, you know if they have that fear about starting presenting or being a podcaster, what is it that you can do to help them I suppose gain that confidence and actually get started?

Matt Eastland-Jones 3:34
Yeah, so there, there is a fear associated with podcasting. A lot of people don't like listening to the sound of their own voice and that is the first, you know, difficult thing people are going to encounter is they've perhaps recorded a test episode and then they're listening back to it, perhaps when they're doing some editing, and then they're like, oh, gosh, is that really what I sound like? And you also start to notice all of the vocal kind of tics or different things that you do. So for some people say, you know, others will say like, others do lots of ums and ahhs, and you start to pick up on those quite a lot. And you'd suddenly start becoming very aware every time you say them, even in conversation outside of when you're recording a podcast. And that can be a bit distressing. But the benefit of having someone else edit the episode for you is that you don't really have to listen back to yourself. So that is one of the pros of bringing an editor in. But really, you just sort of have to start and it might be uncomfortable for those first few episodes. You can always do some test episodes to kind of start to get you into the space, start to feel confident in front of the microphone, but the reality is, you just got to start, because if you can't push past that then you're not going to have a podcast.

Sally Green 4:57
You also have to remember that you don't have to get absolutely perfect the first time, this is not live, podcasts are not live. So if you really goof or you say something you don't mean or anything, it can be edited out. I mean, nobody will hear this. But a few seconds ago, there was a perfect example of that, where we kind of slightly lost traction and Matt actually said, "Actually, we will cut all that out Sam, can you say the question again?". But you have to remember this is not live. So whatever happens, you can do it again.

Matt Eastland-Jones 5:26
Yeah, exactly and that is one of the benefits of all kinds of content creation, when it's not live is that everything can be edited, whether it's a podcast, video, blog posts, everything. It doesn't have to be right first time and do you know what, it rarely is.

Sally Green 5:43
Yes exactly, but you do also have to know that depending on... for Sam and I, part of our USP is that it's not perfect. We don't always say beautifully perfect things. Sometimes we stutter, sometimes the dog barks, sometimes... And that's part of our USP, which is because actually what we're doing is marketing on the coalface. This is what it's like, doing it live. So and I know a podcast isn't live, but this is what it's like learning how to do one to start with. The first ones that we did it, we listened to them, I thought, good Lord, we sound very formal and boring and I do prefer what we do now. But you have to start and you're never going to get anywhere unless you start. Unless you give it a go. You'd never learn to walk as a child if you were afraid to fall over.

Matt Eastland-Jones 6:29
Yeah, exactly and one of the things about podcasting is that compared to media, such as blog posts or videos, where you do want them to be very polished, because of the way in which people kind of consume the medium, and the fact that it is usually relatively longer form, and that it is just positioned as usually a discussion. You can have these mistakes or stumbles or, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect and if anything, usually when there is these kinds of breaks in people's facade, or when they present themselves really well, if anything, it leans the audience more into them, because it makes them realise that these are real people and it just makes you a more likeable person by having these, you know, it makes it more authentic in the episodes that you've just put out.

Sally Green 7:27
Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing is I always find interesting is that, it's like when I'm reading a book, I know exactly what all the characters look like, I know what the hair is... And I do the same for podcasts, I kind of when I'm listening to people, I know what they look like, I know how they dress, I know what the hair looks like. So I always find it slightly disconcerting if they suddenly put it out on video and I'll be thinking, wait a minute, that's not you! That's not what you look like at all! So I think it's one of those unique things, podcasts, they're very much in people's heads because lots of people will be listening to them on headphones. So it's a very intimate kind of form of communication and so it makes it a really valuable marketing tool, because you are absolutely talking to people really closely, they put you in your head while they're walking the dog, driving the car. So it's quite an intimate conversation you're having with them.

Sam Birkett 8:21
That's exactly what I was going to say about the word intimate some of the intimacy of it, because it sort of led me to think about, you know, one of the reasons why and this is the question really, why podcasts have become more and more popular. And I mean, you mentioned locked down earlier on Matt and the fact that, you know, podcasts have been around for a long time, we tried to answer this in our own episode about it. But it'd be really interesting to hear your perspectives about the popularity, whether it's sort of, you know, chicken, or the egg, I suppose, is that you know, have they just, or rather, they become more popular amongst a number of people because there is that diversity of options for lots of, you know, interest areas, and people wanted to find something new. For me, I always come back to I go for a run, or I do gardening or I'm doing some DIY, and I've got the earpods on and I want to listen to a podcast or even driving as well, you know, because I'm always a great lover of radio and listening to radio and, you know, dramas, comedies, whatever it might be. But do you find I mean, I guess you do, hopefully establish that intimacy, that rapport with your presenters on an episode and do you think that, I suppose the pandemic perhaps has boosted that? People wanted because they couldn't be physically with people, but they could connect in a... even if it's mainly one way in a different form? Have you sort of observed that at all? Sort of a rambling question, but...

Matt Eastland-Jones 9:47
In terms of the increase in kind of popularity in the UK, if you look at the listenership it's usually a couple years lagging behind the States. So we use that as an indicator as to interest over time. I think the reason why... I mean, I do think podcasts they were on the up before the pandemic and I think a large proportion of that was probably because of the increase in celebrities doing podcasts like you got the Peter Crouch podcast, I think that was one that a lot of people suddenly became aware of, oh, like, it's kind of like a radio show but I can listen to it whenever I want and I think that was what started to make a lot of people aware of it, and then it's just kind of compounding really, more people became aware, more people realised that they could do podcasts themselves, which means more podcasts available, which means more people were listening and then when you then started to have this introduction of loads of different niches, and the fact that you could literally search for a podcast in any topic, and you'll likely find one that's, you know, existing with a good listenership. I think that was then kind of what caused it to really kind of compound and skyrocket, and then during the pandemic, when people had a bit more free time and weren't able to go out and do, you know, normal day life things, a lot of people, you know, seek refuge in podcasts.

Sam Birkett 11:06
I mean, what I liked about it is the portability, the fact that, you know, can be... I mean, it's also like, you know, things like cooking and stuff like that lots of my everyday tasks, I can have this and I feel like I'm learning something or just, you know, being entertained, of course, as well and it's really nice to have that there. But you do I mean, I feel as if I sort of kind of know, some of the people I listen to on a regular basis and I mean, I always come back to the my sort of number one podcast, 'We Have Ways of Making You Talk' with Al Murray and James Hollins, talking about Military History and the Second World War. Im sure for a lot of people, it's very tedious, but for me, it's just very interesting, I love my history. But then it became... it was an interesting journey, because they obviously had very well-established reputations and profiles, of course beforehand, but this became a medium they really put themselves into and focused on it's a really regular thing. And now it's become, you know, been to a physical event where they've been there and it's built a community and it's obviously it's really monetised, they've got merchandise and all the rest of it, they developed an entire following around this and actually, you know, I say subgroups of their listenership, you know, but the thing that unites everyone is the regular podcast, and you know, they clearly get great speakers and everything, but a lot of the time, it's just the two of them talking and, you know, they start off recording it in like Al Murray's kitchen, I think and then they've developed as they've gone along. I think it's run by Gary Lineker's son, it's the goal-hanger podcast people. So it's just, it was a really nice example of that and how an interest area has developed and of course to say they've actually got on advertising it, monetising it. So you think well, gosh, it must be for them a pretty decent channel, you know, because that's the other thing when I listen to my podcast, I've regularly got people podcast offerers saying, Oh, well, you can do this and start it and advertise and etc. But I was interested, I suppose from the advertising point of view, there are clearly, there are sort of some monetisation possibilities there down the road. I guess if you can get your podcast up and running and regularly there and build your listenership, I suppose. But from your angle, what's the source of... how do you think that's going? Do you think that's something's likely to grow more as the listenership grows? Presumably, because there's more audience out there isn't there to be advertised to effectively.

Matt Eastland-Jones 13:26
Yeah, I wish I had the stat right in front of me, I can't quite remember off the top of my head how big that podcast industry is in terms of like ad revenue, but it's, it's at least one, maybe even kind of two billion and set to increase over time. So yeah, there's a lot of money that's being poured into podcast advertising and I do think that when you compare the effectiveness of podcast ads against something like TV ads, or YouTube ads it is higher. More people are likely to act on a podcast ad than they would do being advertised elsewhere. Now, there's couple reasons why that might happen and a couple different ways in which you can monetise your podcast from an ads point of view. So you have the different kinds of ads that you have on podcasts, you traditionally have kind of pre-roll, mid-roll and post-roll. So these are obviously the locations of the ads and then you can have ads which are dynamically inserted into your podcast. So this is basically if you're a podcaster and say you have 1000 listeners per episode. You can put your podcast on a marketplace effectively and other people can then say, oh, we want to place this ad on your podcast, you say yes and then it dynamically gets inserted, usually geographically. So and you kind of make you know, however many, usually it's kind of about, I want to say like 12 to 15 pounds per 1000 listens. That's one way you can monetise it. I would say that's probably the worst way you can monetise your podcast. The way that I would encourage most people to monetise a podcast if they wanted to, was to try and get sponsors of the episodes and this then allows you to have like a host-read ad. And I think that's the reason why podcast ads are more effective than lots of other ads. Because it's similar, I suppose to when you have sponsored videos on YouTube, where the host is promoting the product, because you have that sense of trust there. If the host of this podcast, and someone that you like, is promoting this product or service, you're then going to feel a lot more inclined to act on that. And also, usually, you can make sure that the product or service that you're promoting lines up with the audience that you have, so you don't get that kind of disconnect, where you have, you know, a podcast that's say about history, and then they start, you know, advertising to get HelloFresh or some kind of food delivery service. Okay, great. I'm sure they're really good. But I'd much rather, you know, be sponsored by a museum or some kind of thing that's related to history. So that I think, is the best way of kind of monetising podcasts if you're going down the ads route. Another way is to monetise your podcast using subscriptions. So you can do something like Sam, you mentioned at the very start, community building. Podcasts are great at building communities, you could create a Patreon, and where you could then have, you know, exclusive episodes available only to Patreon supporters. That works really nicely because you then get this kind of double handshake effect where the people which subscribed your podcast feel good because they know they're supporting someone they really like, and a creator that they want to support. But then they're also getting bonus content, which you know, they want more content, and that's why they're going to going to be paying for it. So that's another way you can also kind of monetise your podcast is by leveraging the community that you've built. There's also another way that you can kind of not monetise it directly. But if you are a business, and you're kind of the podcast format that you've chosen is a Q&A, you can always invite guests onto your podcast, who you hope to build a relationship with, to perhaps become future customers, you know, it's quite hard to kind of get a five-minute chat with the CEO of a company. But if you phrase it as a 60-minute podcast recording, you're likely going to be sat talking to the CEO for 60 minutes, you know, you keep nurturing that relationship, six months later they're your client, that's one way as well, you can be quite clever with your podcast.

Sally Green 17:31
That's really interesting because again, getting people used as a way to have a conversation with somebody is really interesting and if they feel that they're promoting themselves and their business at the same time as you luring them towards you. That's a really interesting concept. I've not thought of it like that, because we do we invite lots of people we could easily... ahh, it's delicious! And actually what we're doing is sometimes is filling in our little black book of people. Oh, look, now I've talked to you, I really want to use you for some of my business going forward. So no, that's a great way to monetise it, actually. That's tremendous.

Sam Birkett 18:04
Yeah, I think that's a really good idea and it's really interesting because you do... and again, I think all this leads towards as you say, this sort of being quite specific, quite targeted about the kind of people and communities and people you want to start having conversations with. I mean, again, it's all around that sort of idea, I suppose of... I mean in my mind, the best performing podcast would be that you know, you perhaps have a you have a mass listenership, but if it's not mass, it's actually more of a target audience that you wanting to get to and the kind of people you invite on into the kind of people you want to network with and potentially become clients and, you know, have that sort of, because we've done we've spoken to a few guys about networking and I think this is a really interesting part of that, as you say, prospecting as well, I think actually talking to people who work with Matt, it's a great, a great medium for that as well and we've said, I mean, sort of in our position as freelancers, people get to know us, from listening to us, and understanding bits about our background and our experiences and it's recorded, and it comes out in a very natural, easy way, rather than, you know, sitting down and saying, I want to write 12,000 words about my life and background and experiences I've had in this, that and the other, this is a really nice way of doing it over a long period of time, through multiple perspectives. So that's what I find appealing about it as well, very much so.

Matt Eastland-Jones 19:26
I think podcasts do position the host in a position of authority and that's one of the nice things about podcasting is that if you're wanting to build, especially a personal profile in your industry, then being a podcast host is a great way of kind of going about that, because you get a lot of content from podcasts that you can share and, you know, you can then build your profile on social media, but if it's a kind of maybe a smaller industry or one that's very tight-knit if you're suddenly then the person that is getting lots of other big names in your industry on your podcast, then, you know, that's really going to help position you as, as a, you know, a leading figure. It's kind of the model of talk shows, you know, think about the Graham Norton Show, you think all the celebrities that go on that show, it's still The Graham Norton Show. It's not the Tom Hanks plus, you know, whoever is on the sofa that week, it's The Graham Norton Show. So, if you want to increase your authority in your industry, then podcasts are a great way to go about it.

Sally Green 20:28
I think it's quite interesting to recognise that actually, your podcast is a brand and you're developing a brand here. So Marketing Meanders will become a brand. Once we've become very famous and managed to monetise it. Ultimately, as you say, people will develop merchandise around it. So it of itself becomes this brand, which you can then play with and that's important and I think it's important from the very beginning of starting to do a podcast is that you are building a brand. That's what you're doing. So you need to make sure that you have consistency, as you say, persistence to keep it going. But that you've got a vision of why, and all those powerful things that you have behind brands to have to exist as part of your podcast.

Matt Eastland-Jones 21:11
Yeah, no, I 100% agree. But I do think one trap that people fall into, especially if they're creating a business podcast is calling it the Company X podcast and I think that that is a mistake, because although brands, branded podcasts and kind of business podcasts do do very well. The ones that do well are usually positioned as their own thing and they're just funded by or produced by the company. So you know, one example is, let's say you're a holiday company, or whatever, you do holiday lets. Instead of doing you know, like the booking.com podcast, you would do a travel podcast where you talk about all the different destinations and what you can do on the destinations and you could have different, you know, experts from the area or tour guides from the area talking about all the things to do you know, instead of just talking about booking.com is great, you can you know... you just you don't want it to be a hard sell if you've got a business podcast, you want it to be very nuanced, very subtle.

Sally Green 22:18
You're right, podcasts are not a long ad.

Matt Eastland-Jones 22:21
No, exactly. Yeah, it's not a 40-minute-long ad. It is a conversation that provides value to the listeners. If it just so happens that they then go and buy your service or buy your product because they listen to it then great. But that's not the purpose of it.

Sally Green 22:39
I think you're right, because actually what you want is repeat customers. You don't want them to listen once Oh, I know everything now, I never have to listen to that again. You want them to say oh, that was good fun. I'm gonna do that again next week or you know, I learned a lot, I was telling somebody else about it. That's what you're looking for. You're looking for repeat customers.

Sam Birkett 22:54
Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. I'm just gonna say something about mentioning 40 minutes, I think we were sort of coming to the end of our time. As ever, it's fascinating, we could go on and talk about it for much much longer, but we can always return to it of course we have the luxury of doing this don't we of discussing again but I was just wondering I think the two of you summed up some really good points there already. But I was just thinking I mean, just putting you on the spot Matt to finish up. Would there be three top tips or three top suggestions you would have for somebody either in the business professional or working as a freelancer themselves if they're considering getting into this medium, would there be three top tips I mean, you're probably just gonna be repeating what we've gone into before but just summing up what they should do what should they think about?

Matt Eastland-Jones 23:46
I think firstly, coming back to one of the first points we said, is understand why it is you want to start a podcast. So make sure you do have an idea in mind for what the podcast is going to do, what it's going to be and who you're going to try and attract to listen to it. The second point would be in the early stages, try not to fixate too much on metrics and listenership. Instead, spend your time focusing on the next podcast recording, the conversation you're going to have, the key take-home message you want. Don't get too bogged down by metrics, because you likely will be disappointed. Instead, focus on trying to build momentum and get people on the podcast... just kind of, yeah, don't stress too much about the analytics, focus on the content first. And then the third and final one is just keep doing it, just keep going. It can be a bit disheartening, if you are looking at the metrics to you know, to try and put out that eighth episode if you've hit that kind of seven-episode threshold, but just kind of keep pushing past it and also, podcasts don't have to be this thing that you do endlessly. You can break it down to seasons, that's something that a lot of my customers do, is we'll say, Well, we're going to do an eight-episode season, that's going to be season one, we're going to get these people on, we're going to record these conversations and then we're going to have a month off, two months off to then reflect what went, well, what didn't go well and then we can improve on that and go again for a second season and we repeat it that way and the nice thing about that is it does give you natural breaks and allows you that time to reflect. Because the thing about podcasting is you do want it to be consistent to kind of you want people you want your listeners to expect that next episode, you want them to be like it's a Monday, I know that on my Monday morning commute, I can listen to the next episode of this podcast. So you don't want to start getting into you know, you put one episode out and then you wait three weeks till the next one and then suddenly we click and there's another episode, that inconsistency can sometimes put people off. But if you do block it out as a season, then when the season ends, you can start building anticipation and excitement for the next season. So those would be my kind of three tips. So know exactly what is going to start the podcast. Don't worry too much about the metrics. And keep consistent with your postings.

Sally Green 26:12
Top tips there. Great. We should have done that, Sam.

Sam Birkett 26:16
Absolutely, I think that's great. I think it sums it up beautifully and really gives a good idea of how to get going because it said is that dispiriting thing sometimes when you start off and actually consistency and keeping your eye on sort of the sunny uplands beyond so thank you so much. That's brilliant Matt. I mean, I've really enjoyed talking through everything today. It's been, you know, really interesting, and also confirming some of the, you know, the things you think you're doing the right direction, but it's really good to, you know, to hear the expert voice and everything you will experience. It's really helpful. I was just gonna say to people, I mean if people want to get ahold of you, and find you well, how can they find you?

Matt Eastland-Jones 26:59
Yeah, so you can search for me on LinkedIn. If you search Matt Eastland-Jones, or if you want to learn more about Story Ninety-Four and the services that we provide then just search, Story Ninety-Four on Google, and we'll be there at the top.

Sam Birkett 27:13
Brilliant. Excellent. Well, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed that today. And thanks for your time Matt, and hope you've enjoyed that as well. Thank you very much, Sally and well, we'll be back next time on our regular slot, keeping that regular momentum!

Sally Green 27:26
Indeed!

Matt Eastland-Jones 27:27
Thanks Sam. Thanks Sally.

Sam Birkett 27:30
Cheers. Take care. Bye now.