Sam Birkett 0:05
Hello and welcome once again back to Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam and now it's part two for our podcast anyway, I'll be quiet and I'll let you carry on and listen to our conversation. Enjoy. As you say, I think that's something that beautifully fixes moments of either customer delight or just fulfilment of promises isn't it really, is that promise of service or product, which is going to say as well, wow, it sounds incredible. Your around-the-world adventure as well. So that's a whole nother podcast episode. That's brilliant. Just very impressive. That was great. But equally, that does you say that for me is it's nowhere near as exciting experience, but I was picking up some furniture for my new house at the weekend and have my daughter in the car and it was a huge long from somebody living nearby, a big long bookcase over two metres long and we've got this sort of an old, it's an old Mazda five battlebus, they don't make them anymore. They make more sort of four-wheel drive things now. But it's, you know, typical sliding doors on the side, we've had it for years, I've said I'm going to run it into the ground. My sort of expectation for this is it's not a glamorous, exciting car, it looks good for what it is. But it's to get my two kids and my wife in and then you know, the fact you can have a seven-seater, you can put all the seats down, you can put a two-metre bookshelf in there comfortably and have my daughter sitting in one of the reconfigured seats and I said to this guy said, Oh, wow, it's great. You can get it in there. It's really good, isn't it? Because it's a huge piece of furniture and I said, Yes, but nice. I love this car. It's been so good to me, I was gonna keep it going to whenever, and I've bought Mazda again and again, different types of Mazda, I've gone off and got an in the past MX5, so completely different, you know...

Sally Green 1:46
You're lucky to get a person into an MX5.

Sam Birkett 1:48
Exactly, I can barely fit it myself. But in terms of the brand, and I was thinking, you know, their promise to me, in terms of that model, not just the brand. But the model of the car, I know it's pretty reliable, you know, you get more specifications for the price. It's never, touch wood, let me down in terms of breaking down so far. But the thing is for that actual product itself, that product line, my requirement was really adaptable, really flexible, big enough, but not massive. It can do things in multiple ways. So they're fulfilling in little ways to my relationship of owning and using that product, those little promises and that makes me want to as I already have, I just been a brand ambassador so we can have nice, so I will do that again and again and I think that's exactly it. In my mind, it's those little fulfillments of promises. It's like that relationship, isn't it? Really. I mean, we always come back to the humanity and the relationships and it's a relationship with the brand, isn't it really, in many ways, I suppose.

Andrew Hancock 2:45
I think it's 100% a relationship, I think what every brand strives to do is to create content that's engaging and builds on that relationship or starts a new relationship, or engages and then transfers the relationship from being No to Yes. So suddenly buy into it. So your takeaways shift off someone else to your brand.

Sally Green 3:09
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's that No to Yes, point. That's a really good way of describing it. It's very simple and cuts to the chase immediately. That's exactly what I was doing. No, I'd never heard of you. I didn't want to buy it to not only Yes, I've now heard of you and I want to buy your product but and I now want to tell all my friends.

Andrew Hancock 3:24
And your competitors are doing exactly the same. But you then just because you used them because they were the best they were you know, amazing and now it's gone actually no they weren't. There's another you know, there's someone else who does it not only better, but engages me better, makes me feel more welcome, more part of it, more engaged. I mean Bowden do it brilliantly. I don't know whether you know, Sam, your wife does it with with the kids, but my wife is hooked on it. Not because, you know, it is expensive. But because it's like, you know, you get a discount card after week after week one. So 10% off, then you get one a week, they say you haven't spent anything from the last discount, here's 20% off. Then three weeks down the line. It's like, here's 25% off, and we've got a sale in women's wear or kids' wear or so that engagement with you is phenomenal.

Sally Green 4:15
Yeah. You have to get it absolutely right all the time, though, because we've talked before about how important trust is in any kind of business relationship and brands don't really get a second chance. So if you goof as a brand, then they will people will give you up instantly, won't they? So you have to make sure that you are absolutely aware of your brand, and that it's a single experience for those customers.

Andrew Hancock 4:43
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. You only get one shot, don't you? And if you do mess up and there are lots of brands that do mess up and they get it wrong. And then to try and claw back, you know what they can, and then you ask the question, why have they got it wrong? What are they doing? Who's you know? Why is that? Why they made those decisions?

Sally Green 5:03
Yeah, it's probably because they haven't actually thought about it through the lens of their brand. I mean, a lot of people when they're trying to do something new kind of lose their brand somewhere, they want to do something new and exciting. It's going to be this and it's going to be that, and they completely lose what exactly you described that one thing, which is, what is the purpose of our brand?

Andrew Hancock 5:21
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Green 5:22
And it could be that when some companies as they grow, there's nothing necessarily wrong with one company having two brands. So if you do feel that your new product doesn't quite fit into that brand, it's probably value not to squeeze it in but to create a new brand, do you think?

Andrew Hancock 5:43
Yeah, I do. Exactly. I, you know, goes back to the Coke, you know, parent brand, doesn't it? It owns SmartWater, Oasis, you know, lots of other brands, which are standalone businesses and brands that have no, there's no sign of Coca-Cola company notes at all, anywhere.

Sally Green 6:00
It's interesting. I think we have to remember constantly... and stupid is a very wrong word. But how stupid your customers are. They have no idea that you know, Ariel is exactly the same company as Persil and it's probably exactly the same product. But you know, never mind, they've got two really strong brands there that have two very strong brand families.

Andrew Hancock 6:23
But it's a bit like the, I can't remember it was a couple of years ago now and I think they did a panorama on L'Oreal face cream. You know, they did L'Oreal face cream costing, I don't know, £80 a pop and then they did a Superdrug version at £8 a pop and it was exactly the same coming out and same factory. And they couldn't understand how L'Oreal was charging this much and Superdrug or whoever it was, Boots, was charging this much. Number seven, and it was all about this, you know, and again, this is where brands sometimes get it right, get it wrong, but they kind of because they're a big brand they feel like in charge more because they want to have a brand logo and they want to be seen with that brand for that.

Sally Green 7:03
Because you're buying the brand you're absolutely right. But as you probably wouldn't go with a big Superdrug badge on your thing, I use Superdrug would probably not be part of your brand kudos.

Andrew Hancock 7:13
Yeah, it might just be that actually, you know, that's where there's that grey area isn't it, brand and customers and you know, and then it goes into actually, this is what I want to use it I actually don't care about the price, I want to use it because I want to be affiliated with that brand. I only want to go and shop in hobby links to buy my lemons. But when those lemons are exactly the same as the lemons in Tescos or Waitrose or wherever they are, I want to be associated with shopping because the experience is better, because I am getting better blah-de-blah and that runs all the way through, I've used high-end shops there that will work all the way through.

Sally Green 7:51
I'm sure there are people who love Lidl but not Aldi and they're still very carefully branding themselves and effectively so that your price at the end will be the same. But as you say it's that experience that you're getting from them.

Andrew Hancock 8:04
Again Aldi has just been amazing haven't they, in terms of you know, they do the obviously the supermarket food, then they have the aisles of whatever it is where you can buy furniture to swing chairs to anything. Genius bit of marketing and what they do, it's like you walk out with stuff you've never really wanted and then just offering more and more than you know.

Sally Green 8:28
They also did something very clever with that brand because it could have become a comedy bit and you could get a bloody bit in the middle and actually, they're now advertising that stupid bit in the middle, and saying, look, you can come up with a kayak. It's exactly what you wanted.

Andrew Hancock 8:42
I came in for two pints of milk and a kayak.

Sam Birkett 8:46
People do that! My friend is a perfect example of that she's walked away with a barbecue in the past, I think she has walked away with like, all sorts of things like you know, a swimsuit, you know, wetsuits and stuff like this and it's extraordinary as you say. So that was on special buy. But it's interesting as well because her perception of it is almost like well, we got that barbecue. She lives near the coast and she said here with the salty air and everything that'll last a season, but I didn't have to pay the earth for it and it was great that it was there. It was really convenient. I was just picking up my weekly groceries and there it was and so we pick that up and you know, it's done what my expectations for it are set in this way. I mean it's very complex and it's we said we've already alluded to the fact that sometimes a brand is something you want to buy into you want to... it's not about necessarily like a pair of jeans say it's not as much about the comfort of you wearing the jeans you want them to I suppose you know fit and be comfortable but it's more about what other people perceive you to be because you're wearing that jean with that label on, it's not about my experience, like my car experience my motivations they're not about people going around always driving a Mazda look at that phwoar! My own enjoyment of that is about you know, it's doing a rather boring job, I suppose. Whereas someone next to me goes, well, I'm gonna buy a Porsche or something like that, because I wants to be seen to be driving a Porsche. I want to be in that club, don't you? But like with relationships, they're very complex, dynamic things aren't they and different. And we have, we have I mean, that's a fascinating exercise, I'm sure someone's told me once, like, just, you know, look around you today just for like, 10 minutes and look at all the brands that you have... he's looking around! All the brands, on you, or on your desk, or your table, or the things you're eating, and understanding. It's almost a multiplicity of relationships you have with all these different brands, and they give you different things, don't they? And they mean different things to different people in your life. It's... I'm going into this ridiculous complexity thing now, but it's just interesting that the interplay of what and then the communications we get from those brands as well, but...

Andrew Hancock 10:51
And there's a psychology in that, there's an absolute psychology and I think absolutely right, I think it's the brand psychologists that's like owning part or, or having something on brand, you know, there are people who can't afford an Aston Martin, but will buy an Aston Martin fountain pen. So they, you know, they own a bit of Aston Martin, they own a bit of that brand. So they feel part of that family in an affordable way that they can get, and that works with everything. It's the psychology of going, you know, I just want you to sit there looking around. I've now realised I'm now surrounded by Apple stuff as a brand. But okay, I'm a designer. So that's, you know, it's a design tool but I literally went oh my god, laptop, iPad, phone, you know, buds, you know, everything's here. I'm Apple's brand guru. I didn't even realise I'm doing it.

Sally Green 11:44
Yeah. Apple has been so clever with their brand. That is just they've got people who are prepared to queue up when they've produced something new. Regardless of it any reviews before it's ever been reviewed ever got it, people are prepared to queue up for kind of like 24 hours outside the Apple shop, to make sure that they get one of the first ones on sale. So they've done something extraordinary with their brand. And the level of trust behind that is immense because I can't believe that Apple computers, they're very reliable, but I can't believe they never go wrong. But you very rarely ever hear people going, Oh, that was because my bloody Apple went wrong. You never hear that and I can't believe that didn't go wrong. I just believe that Apple people just go, oh, well, no, I'll fix that. It's probably my fault. Whereas that doesn't happen with other brands.

Sam Birkett 12:35
But then your support I suppose as well as you say so if you know if it does go wrong, you'll get I mean, like a friend of mine had a I think was a company car BMW had for a while and I was astounded. He said, there's like this, like there's an SOS button thing, which is son kept on pressing. He was the same age as my son is about five at the time he kept on pressing this button. What's that? Oh, it's SOS anywhere in the world. Someone will come and find me. Because this BMW has this feature and then if anything goes wrong, 24 hours, there's a specialist engineer here, doing this and doing that and I was like good grief. But again, something can potentially go wrong. But if it's remedied, so again, that promise isn't it that promise is remedying it if you like, that's even better. The problem reinforced my feelings about this brand even more than when I bought it and it was all pristine and nothing went wrong. It potentially doesn't it I suppose it's that service and that continued relationship because that's the other thing, isn't it? It's just a people sort of, like we said rise to the top people have a look at a brand and a logo and they go well, that's our brand and oh, we've sold this to someone great. There you go and then perhaps forget, but that's not just one interaction. There's the referral, there's brand ambassadors, there's those repeat purchases, upselling. Do you think people quite often sort of forget that element as well, when they're particularly when they're establishing themselves, the new relationships with customers?

Andrew Hancock 13:57
Sam if you take the adage of bank accounts and people will open a bank account, you know, when they're what, seven, eight, I guess in the old days, and I'm one of these, I've still have the same bank account. You know, it's almost like you know, that's, and I've got others but I think back then there was like you had a few brands and you felt those were brand loyalty because they're all doing the same. Now with modern digital banking, it's changed a bit and you can chop and change and blah, blah. But I think people can be also kind of swayed into believing that brands do the right thing for them and almost brand blindness. So they're not seeing what the competition's doing. Might be doing it a whole heap better.

Sally Green 14:46
Yeah, they might be afraid to leave?

Andrew Hancock 14:47
Yeah, exactly. And they're just in no, no, no, I'm gonna stay with you know this brand because it's my favourite brand and I've always had them and they've always supported me. They've been amazing and again, look at the guys just around the corner. They're doing an even better job. No, no, no, of course they're not and it's kind of, you know, how do you then target that as well, when you go, the lethargy, you know the I'm really happy with my brand. I'm really happy with my Mazda. I'm really happy with my car, I'm not going to change. But then when you do change, and that's the big thing, isn't it? You go. I wish I'd done this sooner.

Sam Birkett 15:25
You get so much more, it's cheaper, more reliable. Exactly, but it is that thing, I mean, I have exactly that thing. I'll come back to you ask yourself a question. I mean, we're looking to change our other car and you go away, where should we start? While I'm as we'll start with the brand, I've already got the Mazda funnily enough, and this wasn't on purpose. Again, slightly or Apple thing, I've kind of just slipped into doing this and you go, so where do we start? We'll start there because it's a bit of a leap having to go and jump into bed with another car brand. I don't know. I mean, to me, like, I'm sure that I know, logically, I'm like, well, there's loads of better cars, and just as good cars and worse cars out there. But that's fine. But it's almost like, again, it's a bit of a, that's a bit of an effort, I have to sort of start again, it's like, it's almost like thinking, you know, you have to go and start dating again, or something like that. How often do people particularly be in a relationship for a long time? How often do they want to go off with oh god I'm going to have to start dating, and ahh, you know, it's almost a bit like that, again, coming back to our relationship idea, isn't it, I suppose it's that sort of sense in a way.

Sally Green 16:26
Yeah, I mean, giving up a brand is really hard. But it also makes people if you've got a community who are really loyal to your brand, it can make them price blind. So I'm prepared to pay more than the place down the road who does exactly the same thing. But because it's got this brand on it that I've loved for all this time. So you know, I'm actually paying much, much more than I need to pay. But because I love this brand and that's an extraordinary bit of psychology and that's why you need to make sure I think that your entire company is part of this brand, because you want to make sure that the operations people understand the brand as much as the marketing people. So that you keep, so that when I phone up and say, Oh, my carburettors blown up, I'm very depressed. The operations people have to make me feel as comfortable and happy and adoring my brand of car as much as the marketing people did to sell me it in the first place. So the brand has got to be everywhere and consistent throughout the company.

Andrew Hancock 17:29
It's from sales to marketing, to branding, it's all got to be joined up and aligned so that you have the same experience at every touch point.

Sally Green 17:39
Yeah and people really don't align, do they use that you do bump into brands, which the companies, which have really not got their brands nicely aligned.

Andrew Hancock 17:46
Yeah and I also think, you know, you can look at certain brands, and there's different messages across different digital touchpoints. So they, you know, and the channels and they're all saying slightly different things and I think that's even more apparent in small businesses, you know, where are they quickly just changed something, I just want to add this, and then suddenly, they're off on a tangent and their customer and consumer suddenly gets confused and goes, well, what what are you? Are you this, are you that? I kind of lost your purpose now, what is it you're trying to do? So then they go to their competition, which is much more aligned, refined and dedicated and simplified. No, I've got it, I understand it, bang, I'm gonna use that.

Sally Green 18:25
Yeah, exactly and that level of alignment connection is really valuable and important to make sure that everything you do as a marketeer aligns with everything that sales is saying, and everything that operations is saying in the back, they've got to be the same and it's really easy when you kind of lose sight of what your brand is important and all it is, is a logo, and you lose sight actually know, the brand is what is connecting your entire company together and then on to the customer and that's when you see messes.

Sam Birkett 18:58
It's almost like I'm thinking about the BrewDog example in recent times is sort of, you know, the way they've gone like they've built such an incredibly strong brand and the fact they've been so successful with what it stands for not just what it stands for to the consumer in terms of it's so much more than a brewing company isn't it? It's become so much more, it's this movement, isn't it? A social movement, which is obviously incredibly 2022 and very much in line with everything out there and what people are wanting but then you get to sort of a couple of I say scandals, but you know behind the scenes information happening on the operational side and how the management have been running certain parts of their operation allegedly, I hasten to add, but again, that's an interesting thing because it undermines that feeling of I'm buying into it. I've got friends who buys their shares you get well you get like you effectively are sharing you know you buy a tree when you buy a certain beer. But this way you buy shares and you get discounts and so on so forth. Again, they've got a great strategy of engaging with the sort of brand ambassadors but again, he probably feel a bit a little bit cheated. If you go, Oh, hang on a second, they're not living up to what they should be doing in an operational sense. So you know, whereas how often do you buy a beer or any other non-alcoholic drink whatever in a place and think, do you really think about how is this produced? I mean, obviously, these days, we're so much more conscious of that and I think that's just going to keep going up and up and up, isn't it? So as the business grows, as you say, there's alignment of all the touch points, but there's also this alignment with the entire operation, isn't there about when you start to create a sort of a brand promise, you've got to be absolutely 100% that you are living that throughout because it just takes one person to say, here's a video of, you know, these guys are so environmentally conscious yet, look, here, they're burning a pile of old pallets or something in the back of the, you know, the warehouse, something totally unrelated to the quality of the product. But I thought you, I think I can see that increasing and increasing, and it puts a huge level of focus on the business to ensure that they're living what they're promising to their customers, I think really.

Andrew Hancock 21:08
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, I think it's, I think also people like or it's turning around isn't, it's like, certainly with BrewDog, it's like, it feels like it's a, you know, a small local beer, it's not a big branded beer. But it is a big brand of beer, so again, they've been really clever with their marketing in how they do it, it feels like it's just, you know, a few months down the road brewing as a hobbyist type thing. And I think a lot of big brands are trying to start to do that to get into this like localised, you know, make it feel special, smaller than it really is type approach. So it feels that you're doing it's, you're not part of a big Heineken brand or big Guinness or, you know, whatever, it's a little bit tighter and more conscious and that goes back to what you're saying, Sam about, you know, then all the things that go with that in terms of environmental is that you know, the legalities that all the things that bind to your emotions and create build up your, your report and your relationship with that brand.

Sally Green 22:11
Yeah, I think it's all about honesty because I think greenwashing or whatever we call it is very it's become increasingly tempting for big brands that feel they have to greenwash themselves and that and if the moment that bubble gets burst that really destroys that trust and that belief that people have in a brand they want to trust.

Sam Birkett 22:30
Yeah, it's interesting whilst on the subject of beer and not that I'm thinking about beer all the time but I mean, it was it Carlsberg recently?

Is it that time already Sam?

It's so early so it was only just gone past midday! I have to calm myself down now. It's just it seems to be such an interesting market isn't it beer this seems to be the place to be but I think is it Carlsberg? I'm trying to remember was it recently they did that really... Heineken? I think it was Carlsberg they because they're based in Denmark aren't they? Is that correct? very ominous ad. Yes. But they that's the thing recently, they did this really interesting thing. We're talking about honesty, they came out said we've got it wrong, didn't they? I think they have this whole campaign saying we're really sorry. We've lost our way. We've gone international and exactly what you're just talking about in terms of we used to be a Danish Brewing Company that tried to create the best beer in Denmark and for the world, obviously, that you know, everyone knows the whole, you know, Carlsberg. If Carlsberg did whatever it probably the rest of the world. But then they sort of said, Gosh, strategically here, we've done the wrong thing and we're being honest with you say, I mean, you know, you could be cynical and say, I want to it's just a double bluff. But I can't remember all the details of it. But I remember that was quite recently, wasn't it? They just said, you know, we've actually lost our way a little bit in our operations and our strategy, not just our marketing to you and our brand. We need to go back and re-find what, you know, concentrate on the beer, and I think they launched like, original crafty beer or some original lager Pilsner, something like that, didn't they? It's interesting.

Andrew Hancock 24:06
So it's, it's almost like it's a trend at the moment isn't it that people like this slightly differentiation of what they're doing, they want to be seen as being different and we use differentiation a lot. So you know, that's your standout. That's what you can hang everything on. But the big guys want to do as well. It's like, you know, a car is a car is a car. What's the difference? You know, they will go from A to B, they're either petrol, electric, or diesel or whatever, you know, motorisation you want but it's still a car. So what are you then paying for what you buying into them with that car? Is it the fact that it's made in Germany or is it's made in China or the Far East or, you know, is it the level of service you get? Is it the smell of fresh leather that you get when you jump in at you know, is it the sound of the engine? You know, you go into you know, the supercars and you speak to the guys who buy them, they go forget the badge, it's the sound of the engine I'm after. I don't care what it looks like, it's that noise. I like that pop and you know, and that roar and that growl, whatever it is. So it's much more emotive than it is just about the brand itself. But it's also interesting. I don't know whether you guys, here's a question for you. It's like putting on a pair of shoes, for example, that are well made that your favourite pair of shoes that you love, do you then walk a little bit taller and feel a bit better about yourself because you know, you've got them on? Because you're wearing that brand, you're, you're engaging with that brand? You kind of go, you know, right, I mean, my smarts or whatever it is. I'm, like, I'm now, right I'm off.

Sally Green 25:41
That's really true. Because you do. Yeah. You know, we might be ashamed to think that but yes, yes, I do do that.

Andrew Hancock 25:48
Yeah, yeah, you put something on or you go on and you suddenly feel a little bit, right. Yeah.

Sam Birkett 25:57
No, completely, it is, is that it's the interaction you have, isn't it? And this is something... It's the value, isn't it? Again, you found your own value in in that usage of like you say a pair of shoes. You're like, nice, feels good and I've got a nice, you know, nice jacket on something I feel ready to go for it is it's so much ingrained into just how we experience everyday life, isn't it and special occasions, you're going to wear that pair of shoes for that special job interview or whatever it might be because it gives you that value doesn't it.

Andrew Hancock 26:30
What's the brand of shoe that the name is? What is it? Mules? Mules. Sounds familiar...

Sally Green 26:35
It's no good looking at me because I'll be honest, I wear Wellingtons most of the time, so I'm not really that elegant.

Andrew Hancock 26:42
Jimmy Choos, Jimmy Choos, isn't it? And, you know, and, and again, you know, you go right, what pair of shoes would you aspire to? If you ask any, you know, Lady or wife or whatever, girlfriend, those Jimmy Choos, feel like they'd be, you know, special and, like, handmade to me, and they're crafted and there's, you know, you've obviously got the name behind it, but Jimmy Choo, suddenly started doing something else. Which they haven't done, I don't think, but I don't think they'd be that same, you know, they just kept true to what they do, which is shoes.

Sally Green 27:16
That's true. That's absolutely true. Yeah, they don't, they haven't said all that, let's, let's go into, you know, polo shirts or other things. We've got this great brand, let's put it on top of everything else. Because you're right, it kind of belittles it in a way, wouldn't it?

Andrew Hancock 27:30
Or it's just too hard to kind of, you know, make it into a bigger, there's not too much effort to make it into two or three brands working. You know, brands do it Vera Wang has done it with, you know, her China, you know, her fashion, her perfume, you know, and all the rest of it. So they're obviously brands that do it, and have done it successfully. But it's quite a leap I think, even for you know, and it goes back to this, what do you want out of your brand? Where do you want it to go? Is it going to scale, gonna stay niche, you know, is BrewDog going to, you know, change completely? Or is it just going to keep doing what it does really well.

Sally Green 28:05
I think this kind of bring bringing us to the end of our conversation because it's all about being focused on what the brand is, how it works, where it's going, and what its shape is and where the boundaries of it are. Because brands aren't just bound you can't just push them any old where it has a shape and a boundary, it might be in a small box or it might be in a big country but it's got a brand and it's got a shape.

Andrew Hancock 28:31
100%, I think that boundary is quite interesting Sally in terms of you know if you even get the boundary slightly wrong what you think it is then your brand could fail. And if you need your brand even more or make it smaller, you can actually find that actually that's my sweet spot and I can make everything I want yes now there's there was a guy in a guy in Rotherham and he coated everything in gold and he became like Mr. Gold Man he was like the main man if you want to start coating gold go to this guy and rather he was everything about Golden he knew it and Rotherham obviously, you know, not the biggest place where you got lots of lots of rich people and the rest of it. He goes actually I'm gonna go to Dubai. Now in Dubai, they love gold. He ended up now he's she's multi-billionaire. And he basically just coats everything in gold in Dubai.

Sally Green 29:29
Where they got a lot of money. It was a very wise brand move.

Andrew Hancock 29:32
So he's moved his you know, he is checked his niche. The boundary is moved to like not from Rotherham but to Dubai. He's still doing gold. He's still covering, you know, gold plating everything.

Sally Green 29:44
Yeah, he's just moved to a market where they've got more money that's it was an incredibly good strategic move.

Andrew Hancock 29:49
And gold is their, you know, their colour of wealth, that shows that they've got wealth, is by having things in gold. So from shoes to cars to toothbrushes to toilet roll holders to everything.

Sally Green 30:01
Well, I know that Sam will be doing his new house immediately.

Sam Birkett 30:05
Oh, yeah, absolutely!

Sally Green 30:06
Upscale your brand a bit Sam

Sam Birkett 30:08
Definitely I might have my Platinum wing of the house! That's extraordinary, I could go on with this forever. I just had one sort of final question, because I know we have to wrap up, but I wish we didn't have to because I honestly, could just go talking all day. This is great. But it was around, I suppose. I mean, what we've already just talked about and been talking about throughout, really, but I suppose I was thinking to listeners, really, if you had a piece of advice, Andrew about, you know, people say, well, where's my brand now, you know, how do I, if they're in a position, I suppose thinking, as I say, they're not quite sure about where their brand really is, and how they want to try and build it and the ways in which they can through campaigns, and they hear all this stuff about I need to be interactive, I need to be on this, I need to be on that. What would your... and I think I could probably understand where you're heading with this, but what would your main piece of advice be to them about you know, how you can sort of understand where you are now and have a plan to actually, you know, move things forward with the brand in the future?

Andrew Hancock 31:08
I would suggest that you ask your customers, what they think is your brand and what you do and you would be absolutely amazed that it won't be what you think it is and it probably won't be what your brand actually does.

Sally Green 31:24
That's a brilliant piece of advice and everyone should do that all the time, actually.

Andrew Hancock 31:27
And also, I think lots and lots of small business owners and brands, they're not willing to change or open to change or don't want to hear it. So I think we'll see how to be a little bit open-minded to as well. Go actually, you know, what your mission statement is, or a brand messaging or what you're saying your website isn't relevant anymore. It's not what you do. So then we need to change an update. It evolves, you know, brands evolve, everything, we evolve, businesses evolve. There's going to be far more you know, brand engagement and how you engage with people in different ways over the next few years. So I think people are going to be more and more open to early adoption potential.

Sam Birkett 32:06
Yeah, you know, I'm feeling another podcast coming on where we actually we can an episode where we can look at you know, how the ways in which to manifest your brand specifically because we've there's so much to talk about, isn't there, but I think it'd be really interesting if you're up for it Andrew, so talking about you know, there's some campaigns and how people go about doing this would be fascinating to do as well.

Andrew Hancock 32:29
Yeah, Sam yeah, I'd love to yeah.

Sam Birkett 32:30
Brilliant! No, that'd be great and I'm, I'm sort of apologising it's gone by so quickly, really, but I wanted to also make sure people knew how to get hold of you where to find you on the internet or wherever if you could let us know where people could find if they want to have a conversation.

Andrew Hancock 32:47
Yeah, sure. The website obviously which is brandasylum.co.uk, LinkedIn, Andrew Hancock, Brand Asylum, Instagram Brand Asylum, all the social channels as per usual, not quite sorted the TikTok dance out yet so I'm not on TikTok yet but I do some stuff for clients but not personally, I have a face for radio.

Sam Birkett 33:10
We'll look forward to that that TikTok dance with interest I think I'll be watching this space. But that's great. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed that and as I say we'll definitely have to get you lined up for another conversation into this rich area and well we asked We hope everyone else has enjoyed it as well I'm sure that surely have has plenty of questions to ask. So you can obviously let us know on Marketing Meanders you find us on Facebook, Twitter @meanderspod and yeah, we look forward to continuing the conversation at the time. So thank you once again, Andrew, and thank you, Sally. It's all good fun.

Andrew Hancock 33:49
Sally, Sam. Thanks so much. I really enjoyed it.

Sally Green 33:51
It was a laugh. Thank you so much, Brian.

Sam Birkett 33:53
Thank you. Take care everyone. Bye for now.