Sam Birkett 0:03
Hello once again, and welcome to Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam. It's a very happy new year to you and well, we're continuing with our two-parter, which was looking at lessons we learned from last year and what we're going to try and apply this year and excuse us, if we've got some references in there to Christmas, you're probably well over that now and the decorations have gone away in their box for another year and you're moving on and looking towards what's going to happen in January and February and beyond. So we covered a number of different topics in this discussion and you'll see that we try to limit ourselves to three main areas, but we just got carried away as we usually do. So we're looking at communicating across teams flexibility, with jobs, with contingency planning, that's certainly something that we've seen this last year, and something we've had to be more adaptable in general towards the flexibility of people coming in and out of the business. Also, technically and process-wise, what do we have in terms of contingencies and redundancies, that enable us to switch things across and have other members of the team pick up workstreams when we have absences or changes due to uncertainty. Also, I go into how automatic car lights and fog equates to something in marketing. So I'm going to leave it there, you have to find out what I'm talking about in terms of automatic car lights when you're driving in fog, you'll get to that shortly. Also looking at human conversations, really again, we return to the human element and not losing sight of that in the face of all this incredible automation and digital systems that we have available these days and finally, also looking at new people coming into the workforce. Have you had people join your team entering the workforce for the first time during the pandemic? And we need to spare a thought for those who have actually begun their careers during this extraordinary time and what's it gonna be like for them integrating and also facing the new challenges of even going back to certain aspects of normality, shall we say in inverted commas from pre-March 2020, if you're in the UK, or internationally before the current pandemic struck. So that's what we've got today and hope you enjoy it. We'll be back with more on the next few weeks. But for now, relax, sit back and enjoy.

Sally Green 2:20
This should have taught us and I think it has changed it slightly is communicating across teams and to clients and stakeholder management and making sure absolutely everybody knows what's going on all the time. So having a really good project management system that says exactly what you're doing when and whether you've done it, so that people can just look back at yesterday because to be honest, tomorrow might be completely different. We might just have a look at what did we say yesterday. So just communicating is really important because what you don't want to do is for your operational team to fracture because people don't know what's going on. Or because some three people have not been able to be there for 10 days because they're having to isolate, what exactly is going to happen. Talk about it find out where you don't just go Oh, god, that's a disaster. Let's all stick our heads in the bucket, which is very tempting.

Sam Birkett 3:13
Yeah, absolutely. I mean and actually on that theme, exactly the flexibility. It's like, I suppose teams have shifted so much people who've previously I suppose been on furlough, rotating furlough, or getting ill. So the whole thing of, as you said, the importance of actually keeping records and understanding of where things are, the communication, that's absolutely it. Say someone is suddenly out for 10 days or longer or goes altogether, you know, Oh, okay. So that person who we've relied upon to do this is no longer here. So proper communication and understanding other people's jobs is really important.

Sally Green 3:51
The person who started that task might well not be the person who finishes it and you're absolutely right. That's really important to keep all those records going to see you know, say where, more importantly, the really important nitty gritty things are, if you write a blog, where have you blooming filed it? Where is it? Thanks, you've written six months' blogs, and now you've gone, WHERE ARE THEY?!

Sam Birkett 4:22
Or maybe you found all the copy for them, but then all the creative you use, which has those lovely infographics, no one knows where they are. What were they created in? Where did they save in the system? Was it an email? Was it on their personal drive? What's going on? Yeah, all those sorts of things around yeah, just having some good basic practice, good simple things, isn't it? And actually saying you know, because it makes you think about when you induct someone, I suppose to begin with into the business. Well, this is the central repository, which is well organised and this is where stuff is because otherwise if you rely on our old you know, Jim or Lillian used to sort of do this and they created that or whatever, and they've gone. They've left us and so we don't know.

Sally Green 5:08
She gets used to keep a shoebox under the desk, but God knows where that's gone.

Sam Birkett 5:12
On a remote USB Yeah, exactly. I don't know what's going on now. But yeah, exactly. I mean, and again, it's quite often in fact, sounds like quite a simple thing, can't it, but in many ways, it's, you know, all those little simple things that can stop, you can have a grand plan and then you go, Oh, but no one knows the password this account? Where was that stuff stored? Oh, that was you know, so and so who's gone. Okay, do we need to have their contact details? I don't know.

Sally Green 5:43
You're gonna have to put something in your project management system, which is a whole extra task, which takes you back. Just you have to reinvent square one because the moment you're in a quadrangle, yeah and you need it to be a square and that's all very difficult. Yeah. No, you create yourself real problems.

Sam Birkett 5:56
Yeah, exactly. As I say, it sounds like a sort of straightforward thing. But I think increasingly with this, this level of flexibility, and as I say, greater flexibility in terms of what you can flip to do. But then also more I say, rigidity, but certainly more foundational support to ensure that the systems and the processes every day, the sort of the more dull stuff that backs up all the exciting campaigns and things are there, isn't it really that's the thing, I suppose we're saying.

Sally Green 6:25
You mustn't be scared to try new things. This has taught me this, that not, you know, we've all had to get really get the hang of Zoom, Google Meet, Teams really quickly and we have. I think as long as you weren't scared to do it, you know, press a button and see what happens and we've all learned that nobody's going to kill you if you get it wrong. In fact, at the very beginning of these podcasts, I did a podcast with someone very nice and we chatted for an hour and a half and I had forgotten to press the record button and he, and he was very nice about it. He just went let's do it again.

Sam Birkett 7:03
And it's okay. Well, that's it, isn't it again, as you say, it's not being afraid to do things and also, as you say, not being afraid to get things wrong on the first go. Okay, well, I know I will be doing this in a different way in the future and so that can be changed that can be updated.

Sally Green 7:22
We've become much less judgmental, probably before COVID, before this Zoom experience. It was all very, oh my God, I've got to start talking to people on some kind of technical way like this Skype or whatever it used to be. All my cats will be locked out, the dog is possibly in a different street, all the windows are closed, everything's... but now, to be honest, we've got much more straightforward about, it doesn't matter that children come in, or dogs appear or your budgie is flying around, because we can concentrate anyway.

Sam Birkett 7:55
Yeah, exactly. It's interesting. It's almost a sort of antithetical thing, or the opposite from what you expect with more, we've had to be more digital, but we've become a bit more human, which is a bit deep for...

Sally Green 8:08
Yeah. You're going to go on about this about not becoming completely technical?

Sam Birkett 8:12
Oh, yes. I was wasn't I? Oh, gosh, yes, yes, absolutely. Yes. A sort of a segue into that. But yes. Well, that's it again, the thing I'm always banging on about, of course, the whole thing of as you say, we're sort of, you know, we can accept the fact that yeah, there are children and dogs and cats flying around the house, and actually, I've seen far more know more about clients, I suppose I worked with, and I would ever if I was meeting him in a professional sense, you know, and obviously, you can, I think there's more quickly, there's I definitely found that like, more quickly, sort of connected with people in a very personal way. Far more rapidly, even though there's loads of people I've worked with. I've never met him in real life. You know it's strange in that way, but it also yes, I mean, it does show that it is possible to form those connections online, of course. But yes, the thing I was going to mention as you alluded to, and this is a very short story, but I was driving in the fog on the weekend very foggy around here and I was checking, gosh, I haven't had my fog lights on for ages, sound incredibly sort of middle-aged all this now, but I thought, oh, yeah, I'll put my fog lights on. It's really quite thick, actually. And I'll put them both on. There we go and I was driving around as I do, then seeing other people with no lights on at all. Not even fog lights, just no lights on the car and I thought, Oh my goodness. Why don't know when he likes him as much as possible. Yes, this is dreadful, you know, that they're driving around, and I couldn't see them and oh, no, this is awful and I'm sort of almost as I was driving along, you know, looking around the place and he was certainly we've got them on. Certain people haven't I thought, well, what's probably happened is this is people who like, my car has this thing again, where it's, you know, automatic sensors to say, well, if it's nighttime, the lights come on automatically, or if it's raining, it knows it's raining and it starts to do the windscreen wipers, which is fantastic, great technology very helpful and I know lots of cars have this now. But yes, I was thinking that's probably what's happened here, they've gotten a car, they've not even thought, they've not even had the assumption in sort of an unspoken or unthought-of assumption that obviously their car will do everything it needs to do to make sure that they drive safely and everything set up, but they hadn't and so it made me think in a moment, I thought, well, there you go. That's a great example of how sometimes no matter how good the technology is, particularly in marketing, automated stuff, A) it can go wrong or B) without human intervention, human input, it can start off in the wrong way and you've not even been aware of needing to check something. So for example, setting up an automatic social campaign and you think, well, this is amazing. I've got it running and there you go, and I forget about it, and then go, Oh, damn, that's been carrying on charging me a certain amount of money, my budget, I hadn't checked, because I assumed it was all optimised and blah, blah, blah. So I think it's a sort of a caveat, I suppose to be wary, particularly as next. But not just, you know, giving ourselves over to automation.

I think you're right. I'm a huge fan of automation and I think it's because I think it does save us time and gives us time to be more creative about other things as long as you stick in that automated. But as you said, if it starts, it might start tremendously. But your first line, say the first line, your nurturing email might be, isn't it wonderful to be back at work? And you have to make sure that just suppose it was just now where it's all been, we've been, it's been recommended that you work from home again. That's the wrong header, isn't it? So don't forget to check what you thought was good, then might not be good now. It doesn't mean you shouldn't automate it, it just means you have to keep your eye on it.

Yeah, absolutely and as you say, it can be as simple as that. But carrying on with the car analogy, it's the whole thing of actually just... I suppose like the sat nav thing as well. Sometimes, you know, when people you've heard the stories of people who have, you know, like, this is the best route to go and it actually took you twice as long because you had to go, you went as the crow flies perhaps or you or whatever. Well, you had a setting on there that said, avoid the motorways or something like that to get to North Shore or something and so you have these sorts of, you know, again, without that, we can become too relaxed, too reliant, I suppose on some of the automated features, it's having that setting off in the right direction and then checking back to say, just putting on my human cap here. This is a great programme, and it's doing stuff I hadn't even thought of, and it's optimising these things for me automatically and that's great. But again, are the basics correct? And is it also I think, also sort of monitoring to say, well, particularly with something like social campaign, which might be set up and it's, you know, you're trying to optimise people coming through to download something on a website? And are you actually focused on you know, A) can they actually do it? So the beautiful genuine set up? Are they actually getting through and doing it successfully? And if they are, is it for the right price? And if it's not, do we need to tweak, change the audience, you know, so all the stuff that we're feeding into the machine? Is that correct? And then also, do we know that it's working or not? What's our human perspective on it, and so I suppose, is almost having a container around the automation. So it's doing everything we needed to do and again, I suppose it's like a process of just ensuring that you set it up correctly, check in with it correctly, and then make sure it's switched off and, you know, you can analyse what it's done as well.

Sally Green 13:33
Your right, this is analytics, which is the human hat to that technology stuff, because the analytics, if you've set it up beautifully, and they're meant to be downloading this ebook, it's all tremendously wonderful and then you look if you don't look at the analytics, and notice that nobody's downloaded the ebook. That's either because there's a glitch, a technical glitch, or that you've put them off at the very beginning by saying, you know, this ebook is only for people with a pet budgie when you actually met a good budget.

Sam Birkett 14:05
Exactly, yes, and I think it is that sort of, it's also making the most of it, isn't it? Sort of it's understanding the options are things you can do with whatever automation that you might be using, whether it's email or whatever else, and it's the sort of, you know, understanding to begin with, Okay, well, this automation is three emails, it's welcome journey. Have I made sure though, that if someone does do what I want them to do after the first email, and they're a superstar client who comes through and says, yes, I'm going to buy one of selling, you don't send them emails two and three saying please buy this because you've already done it and what what is it in your systems and your processes in your CRM that's going to actually make sure that again, they've had a good customer journey? So I think it's just that awareness isn't it of knowing, you know, getting a human being to try it out as well to begin with, and then also just going have I actually worked out all the, you know, the sort of the marble run where it's gonna go.

Sally Green 15:01
And the pitfalls that might happen because people, and you also have to remember that people do really annoying things like change their email address. That's annoying, because you got them way down that down the funnel, and then they disappear. I guess it's nurturing, but they're not. So you have to have a lot of really irritating human things happen, that you have to keep in your mind constantly. So you have to keep that human customer right in the middle of your brain, it's got to be a bigger issue for you than the technology working correctly. What's your customer doing? Experiencing? Thinking? Feeling? All of that kind of thing.

Sam Birkett 15:41
Exactly. That's it. I suppose in general, yeah. So there's a lesson in sort of making sure you apply and reapply the human touch to whatever it is you're doing. As things get more and more incredible. I mean, it's brilliant, all the new technology that's coming out all the time, and very impressed. But it's, it's interesting, I have been doing some work and I think it's sort of things are set up again, it's interesting, I'm just thinking back to sort of the simple things and let's say the simple thing and they're a little bit important, I suppose the things where you think you assume that, you know, you're utilising fantastic technology to do certain pieces of your work, certain campaigns you're running, but then it is those little connecting conduits and pieces of work where you actually ensure that a person does X, you know, that means that all that great stuff happens and again, it's I mean, I know, we're sort of reiterating what we said before, but I think that's that sort of, yeah, just as an overall observation about, make sure the human stuff works, but because then otherwise, the great technical software, automated stuff, probably won't work, it might do but probably won't if you don't do the human stuff, right first.

Sally Green 16:57
We should have learned to do this over the last two years. But we've lost contact with people, and some people have isolated at home for months on end, and lost contact with people, and it has completely shattered their mental well-being, it's been awful and we have to remember that for marketing, we don't just want to go, oh, well, I've got our customer. Now let's abandon them to the technology. Maybe occasionally, our loyal customers that are sitting on our CRM, only getting emails, when you know, the possible campaign might maybe want the sales team to give them a ring. Or actually say how are things going, don't lose that and that's something that we really should learn from this experience and it can be very easy if you just get lost in a mele of tech and you never speak to a person and actually, we need to speak to each other, because sometimes speaking, somebody, they can solve a problem instantly or sell you something radically because you've never thought of it.

Sam Birkett 17:50
Yeah, exactly. I mean, actually, it's just made me think of sort of solid mini profound, again, about really, truly, genuinely, I suppose asking yourself the question about how often as a marketer, in particular, when I can generate leads for a campaign, my terminology is leads or then you talk about somebody confer to perhaps an opportunity or whatever, whatever terminology you have, but how often do you really think about that as a human being, as a person, no matter what it is, you're selling, how often do you genuinely think, ahh but they're probably just a bit, you know, fed up, because they gotta go and pick the dog up from the vets, they've had a massive vets bill, I've got to do this and they're reading my email to them, which is beautiful and perfect, but then they've got these other stresses in life and they've got this and they've got that and am I really, and of course, it's difficult when you're talking to a big audience, but yeah, just really getting that human touch. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know exactly what I'm saying.

Sally Green 18:49
Yeah, I think it's too often that we get oohh, is this?... Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes you think, Oh, look, we've got 10,000 leads, that's fantastic. But actually, maybe that's not too many, but you're gonna not it's hard to keep a human connection with them. Particularly if you're pretending to have a human connection with them by saying, Hi, Sam. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Have a good holiday Sally. I'm not that. I'm not ever going to speak to you ever. I don't know who you are. But I'm pretending the baits.

Sam Birkett 19:25
Yeah. Yeah, exactly, the genuine connection, isn't it really, that sort of thing of? I mean, just I suppose it's always applying that human touch, as you would inside a handbag shop, for example. I mean, you know, if we're there, actually, you know, yeah. What's the best customer experience? It's when the person who's running the handbag shop can talk to you about oh, yeah, it's really annoying, isn't it when you lose your keys down at the bottom of the bag here, do you know what we've developed a little thing here the edge which you know, you pop it, saves your car key in there. It's large enough for all car keys, but I really find that really irritating, don't you? And yeah, it is the human touch in all these things that actually makes all the difference and yeah, it is not losing that, I suppose is what I'm what we're trying to say.

Sally Green 20:11
Because now we've experienced losing it, all of us probably a little bit of experience, you know, not being able to go to a shop all of a sudden for quite a long time was really weird and we must make sure that our customers don't ever feel like that, oh, I'm at a loss. I'm in a bit of a limbo here. I don't quite know what's going on.

Sam Birkett 20:28
Exactly, exactly and that just goes into everything that goes into everything that we're trying to write and then the customer journeys we're trying to push people towards and just really trying to think, gosh, so what is the actual, the human insight here rather than the seeing this person as a business unit of you know, who interacts, you know, it's it's it? They're a real person, that's the thing that oh, yeah. We should dive back into one of your lessons I think before I go too far down this rabbit hole.

Sally Green 21:02
Well, I think, oh I know. We've touched on this before, but it's about thinking across teams. So it's very easy that... we've been forced to do that now because, you know, sometimes our colleague wasn't there. As we've said before, but you absolutely mustn't lose that, just because we're going to get back into an office is now and then we're sitting in our office where and the marketing team sits here and the sales team is possibly in a different building over there, we mustn't lose the ability to go and talk to them and actually reach out to them. Because actually, it was relatively easy on teams, because they were there, you could see them. But actually, we mustn't lose the ability when we get back into offices of actually walking for 300 yards to go and see them or, you know, physically getting our arse in gear to sort out a meeting to get together. So because I've been to other offices, but all of a sudden, they've stopped talking to each other, and they will only direct message each other. Or they'll do online chatting and you're thinking. I know this is you are talking to them. But this isn't talking to them, go and breathe at them when we can, when we can do that. Just get slightly closer because I think it does make a difference.

Sam Birkett 22:27
Yeah, absolutely. As you say, I mean, it's most definitely one of those overall things isn't as we've always reinforced in the podcast about actually seeing, actually talking to people and particularly in other teams, as you say it's so important. Yeah, again, I think I think a lot of people will have a natural... well at the moment is obviously natural reluctance to sort of see any other human being.

Sally Green 22:49
I absolutely empathise, I'm not suggesting you're... so you know, go out and breathe everywhere. That was very wrong thing to say. But eventually, we will be able to again.

Sam Birkett 22:58
Yeah, absolutely and as you say, it is that thing of yeah, not being scared almost to sort of, I don't mean in an epidemiological sense. I think that but I mean, in a sense to, to actually reach out to people and talk things through and yeah, just reestablish it, because it almost makes me wonder about the people who're just new to the workforce in the last two years. Someone coming in as a, I don't know, maybe they're 21 year old or 18, or whatever, someone coming into the workplace and going, I've never known anything else than us being in this scenario since I started work in April 2020 and you think, wow, that's, you know, I mean, we've got the benefit of, you know, a long period before us of working in, again, sort of normal times and you think, well, that that must be, particularly, if you've got a team that's got perhaps a lot of new starters. So they don't know how the team and the office and other people departments, they never even met people face to face, not had Christmas parties, not had drinks after work. They've not had team meetings, company meetings. They've not had that, since they joined the company, but some people have never ever had it, you know, school, university, and then bang, they're into this weird world.

Sally Green 24:11
You're right. That's extraordinary.

Sam Birkett 24:13
Yeah, I mean, it's sort of I tried to think of any examples of people I have... I've met a lot of people who've joined the company, and so they've not had the experience of physical face-to-face experience, you know, seeing other people on their team and perhaps they've come along and stayed for a year or 18 months and done a project and then left, you know, they'd never seen them, but I haven't really been in touch with anybody who's come straight into the workforce as a, you know, a starter. But yeah, that I think was a huge challenge. So it makes me think for listeners and people who are managers and leaders, etc, businesses, that's probably gonna be an important thing to really work on when we do hopefully all sort of get back into a situation where we are able to go physically into the office on a long term basis and do things in that way again, or if we continue online, you know.

Sally Green 25:04
I think it's really important that managers actually make sure that new starters, as you say, who possibly aren't aware of how things work don't self-isolate themselves, don't feel they just have to sit at their desk and just this is all I can do.

Sam Birkett 25:17
Yeah, you do lose so much don't you. I mean, some people, I suppose are much better at just reaching out and saying, Okay, well, I'm, you know, I'm just gonna reach out to everybody and get to know them and everything else. I mean, in a way, I've sort of felt this in a way that when I started working, someone new, I found it quite a bit easier almost to sort of, as I said before, sort of reach out to people and, you know, we're all in the same boat, and you're on a Zoom call with them and you're straight off, it's almost a little bit more straightforward. Slightly, I mean, but then that's someone who's got, you know, perhaps more experience with someone coming into an organisation might be like, Well, I haven't even physically sort of seen it and you have a tour of the office at your induction, you say, right, that's those offices. So this is the marketing team, these are the finance guys and you at least can see what's going on and you know, those little, those little personal signals where you walk past someone's desk, and they've got like, a Manchester United flag or something you hear oh, well, they're clearly interested in football or a picture of their dog in there and you go, I've got a dog. Nice, nice. That's a nice sort of, you know, relationship-building thing. They're talking about that and then, oh, we'll go for a drink, you know, on Friday. Great. Well, we'll do that. All those little connections, which you have to rely on getting online, more or less and so I suppose that is a lesson for me. Sort of yeah, it's just being aware, I suppose having to try and again, put time into rebuilding, reestablishing connections in a team, particularly next year, if people around and just being aware of those new people, isn't it really I suppose. So I hadn't thought about that actually until we came out of discussion, but yeah, it's really important.

Sally Green 26:58
You do forget and as a manager, if there are any managers listening, it's important to spot the people that make sure that people are being okay. Yeah, it can be bloody lonely being at work.

Sam Birkett 27:12
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're carrying on with the tasks and the things you do and perhaps you've had a really productive week or month, and it's all done, yeah, and it's also it's keeping an eye on people to know, Well, are they okay? Are they okay, on a sort of human basis, particularly your line manager? But are they also in a position where you think they're okay, with the work, they're settled, they're happy they, are they going to stay? Or are they, you know, sort of, I'm actually I'm doing the stuff. I'm doing the work. But I'm really struggling on a personal basis here and I don't know if I am going to hang around, you know, I mean, as a manager, you don't want to have to keep on getting people in and then they're unhappy and replace them again. So yeah, that's important, isn't it? So gosh.

Sally Green 27:59
Yeah, we have talked about this before. But it's similar that as a manager, you really ought to be recognised things that your staff are finding difficult as much as things they're good at and if they're finding it difficult, it's not that they're wrong, or they're hopeless, it could just be that they're not suited to that task, but they're very suited to this task. So just stop them doing that one, and get them to do this one because if you've got the big fish team, there may be somebody that can do that instead, because they liked doing that and they're better at it. So analytics is a perfect example. Some people love it. Some people hate it. Give it to the people that love it.

Sam Birkett 28:34
Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing, as you say, finding the things that people relish and they can really get into who again, hearken back to the earlier points about trying new things and doing new things, and then quite a lot of things that people have found that they've gone, oh, yeah, gosh, that's, I've never had to do that or been involved in until now and I find it really, you know, fulfilling and it's great and so, you know, there's opportunities to try things but then I suppose as well not be afraid to say what I need to get some investment in me developing these new skills as well now and try that.

Sally Green 29:09
Yeah, completely.

Sam Birkett 29:11
You can do as well, but gosh!

Sally Green 29:14
Look at us sorting stuff out.

Sam Birkett 29:17
Everyone now who's listened to this should be fully prepared for anything that life can throw at them! Clearly that's our, you know...

Sally Green 29:25
Don't be scared, think outside the box and chat.

Sam Birkett 29:27
Yeah, I think that's good, I think we've had a nice as we said at the top a nice melding of those things and those three points that brilliantly summarised there I think, together nicely and yeah, I mean, I think we've ever been really interesting to see you know, and to hear what other people have found them. So it makes me think for the sort of, you know, in 2022 when we've got some conversations coming up with some speakers and talking about what they found. I think maybe we might find like a bit of a recurring question, saying, well, what have you discovered, you know? Because it's always interesting, isn't it when then these as we found today, the sort of the answers sort of collide and they come along a similar theme or you have something totally out of a left field and you go Oh, okay. Yeah, I've never thought of that. So yeah, we will still be here in 2022

Sally Green 30:24
Absolutely.

Sam Birkett 30:25
Gosh, when did we start? My goodness, we were in...

Sally Green 30:28
We've been doing it for years now.

Sam Birkett 30:30
It's been a time.

Sally Green 30:32
I think it is quite a long time now.

Sam Birkett 30:35
Well it's exciting to go into, you know, another year.

Sally Green 30:38
Another year, absolutely and we're still enjoying it.

Sam Birkett 30:42
Well, that's it. That's the end of our 2021 review and looking into 2022, the new year in which we are now well ensconced, and we hope you found it useful. If you enjoy the podcast in general and have been enjoying it for some time then please do feel free to share it. You can share any episode that you listen to with your friends, family, well-wishers, colleagues, and anybody who you might think would find it interesting and also if you fancy contributing towards the podcast anyway, any ideas and topics you'd like to discuss or have us to look into for you, then we'd be very happy to do that. So if you just Google Marketing Meanders with Sally and Sam you'll find us, you can contact us at meanderspod@gmail.com and yeah we look forward to hearing from you. So hopefully everyone's doing well. Take care. See you soon. Bye for now.